leveling skills (idea)

The tale of the siblings Althea and Shea https://www.winterwolves.com/seasonsofthewolf.htm
User avatar
jack1974
Pack leader
Posts: 14675
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2005 4:43 pm

leveling skills (idea)

Post by jack1974 » Tue Mar 04, 2014 12:49 pm

OK so... I'm thinking to add "leveling skills" to this game (is an attempt, so might not be able to do it, but will try in this week).
Instead of a skilltree, all the 7 (maybe will add another one so 8 ) skills of each character / class can be learned from level 1. Every level up you get 1 skill point that you can spend on any skill. Every skill point will increase the skill power.
Example, Druid spell of Hail:

Code: Select all

LEVEL 1: Hits a row of enemies with Water damage for 100% of caster's base attack, and a 5% chance of causing Frozen condition for 3 turns.
LEVEL 2: Hits a row of enemies with Water damage for 105% of caster's base attack, and a 6% chance of causing Frozen condition for 3 turns.
LEVEL 3: Hits a row of enemies with Water damage for 110% of caster's base attack, and a 7% chance of causing Frozen condition for 3 turns.
LEVEL 4: Hits a row of enemies with Water damage for 115% of caster's base attack, and a 8% chance of causing Frozen condition for 3 turns.
LEVEL 5: Hits a row of enemies with Water damage for 120% of caster's base attack, and a 9% chance of causing Frozen condition for 3 turns.
All the values could be tweaked, I could decide to increase the duration instead of the chance, or both, etc. Considering in the game there'll be 30 levels, and you have 8 skills, I think I could put a level cap of 10 on each, and/or make every "level up" cost 2 skill points after a certain level, to prevent a single attack from becoming too much powerful.

I'll make more experiments in next days, but that's basically the idea. Harder than it seems to implement but of course not impossible, I need to see if takes me too much time!
Wish me good luck :lol:

User avatar
Lonestar51
Elder Druid
Posts: 501
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:12 pm

Re: leveling skills (idea)

Post by Lonestar51 » Tue Mar 04, 2014 1:17 pm

I rather liked the system from Loren, where the improved versions of spells increased the area (but decreased a bit the maximum damage). Thus, level 1 had still some value in situations where you need to hit a boss (and damage to the minions beside him are bonus) while level 3 (hit everything) was suited to situations where five or six enemies of (roughly) equal strengh are present. This offered tactical possibities. it also offered interesting decisions during level-up: Get a new attack (e.g. water for Draco) to increase the number of possible weaknesses; Or get a fire attack level 3 which attacks everyone? (but demons and hellhounds are immune)

This is not to say that having bonus damage as in your example is a bad thing, but rather that I would like to have decisions of area vs. max damage, or others which are not strictly "version 2 is better than 1".

User avatar
yayswords
Elder Druid
Posts: 1436
Joined: Sat Jan 25, 2014 5:34 am

Re: leveling skills (idea)

Post by yayswords » Tue Mar 04, 2014 1:24 pm

I like the initial idea, because the Loren skill trees felt rather arbitrarily designed. I didn't really feel much of "yeah it makes sense that you need to know A to learn B, whereas C can be learned independently".

However as I've mentioned elsewhere, I want level 1 of the skill to have a 100% chance to cause the effect (Frozen in this case). Maybe a bit lower since it hits a whole row. Then higher ranks can increase damage or duration or both.

Observation: From a RP perspective you could argue it would be quite easy to freeze a water elemental (even though they are resistant to the water damage) compared to a fire elemental (what's there to freeze lol), a fire elemental is practically already burning, etc. So maybe if you use this Hail skill on fire creatures, you do extra damage, but if you use it on water creatures, you have more chance to freeze them although you do shit damage. It could add depth.

Also another measure to take to prevent us from spamming up one skill is to do like in MOBA games like Dota/LOL and unlock new levels like: at level 1 you can get r1 of your skills, at level 3 you can get r2, level 5 you can get r3 (level 6 you can get a special ultimate if you wanna toy around with that). That way you level two spells alternatively or you level one heavily but take others here and there for their utility.
If at first try it doesn't explode, it ain't Jack who wrote the code.

User avatar
jack1974
Pack leader
Posts: 14675
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2005 4:43 pm

Re: leveling skills (idea)

Post by jack1974 » Tue Mar 04, 2014 1:43 pm

Lonestar51 wrote: This is not to say that having bonus damage as in your example is a bad thing, but rather that I would like to have decisions of area vs. max damage, or others which are not strictly "version 2 is better than 1".
Well this could apply only to spells though, since most other skills have single target. But yes I see what you mean, I wonder if I could just make the spell area selectable directly when you cast it... (I mean of course I could do that, but could take me lot of time :) )
Or in this game the Mages could be the one that deal "splash/area damage" as unique trait, differently from the Thief / Warrior who focus on a single target :wink: (quick excuse for not do it! hop)
yayswords wrote:However as I've mentioned elsewhere, I want level 1 of the skill to have a 100% chance to cause the effect (Frozen in this case). Maybe a bit lower since it hits a whole row. Then higher ranks can increase damage or duration or both.
Having 100% chances would probably make the spell very powerful, however I could change the duration as said before, so that could still be fine.
yayswords wrote:Also another measure to take to prevent us from spamming up one skill is to do like in MOBA games like Dota/LOL and unlock new levels like: at level 1 you can get r1 of your skills, at level 3 you can get r2, level 5 you can get r3 (level 6 you can get a special ultimate if you wanna toy around with that). That way you level two spells alternatively or you level one heavily but take others here and there for their utility.
Ah that's a good system indeed, I think I could use it! thanks for the suggestion :)

User avatar
yayswords
Elder Druid
Posts: 1436
Joined: Sat Jan 25, 2014 5:34 am

Re: leveling skills (idea)

Post by yayswords » Tue Mar 04, 2014 2:03 pm

It's not quite necessary in this case with the 100% chance, because the spell still fills a niche even if you assume it won't debuff anyone. It's a water spell, so it's your go-to spell when enemies are water vulnerable or at least resistant to your other spells. However if we say there are two hypothetical warrior skills, both single target. They cause the same damage and cost the same mana (if they're the same level), one has a chance to cause slow, the other a chance to cause weakening. I decide slow is better, so I max that one, and I in fact don't put a single point in the other one because all I can count on it to do is damage, and it's no good for that compared to the one I've maxed.

Imagine however that it was guaranteed to cause weakening. Then I might take a point there just for that. And I might take another because I don't like the short duration that I have to constantly refresh instead of being able to hammer the target down with my high damage possibly-slowing attack instead. And imagine if I want to weaken multiple targets, then the duration becomes even more of a problem. See, if it was guaranteed to weaken at level 1, with increased duration (and damage etc) for each level, then I would probably take at least one point there, just to have weakening in my toolbox, and perhaps a few more until I feel the duration is good enough.
If at first try it doesn't explode, it ain't Jack who wrote the code.

User avatar
jack1974
Pack leader
Posts: 14675
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2005 4:43 pm

Re: leveling skills (idea)

Post by jack1974 » Tue Mar 04, 2014 2:51 pm

I see your point, so for single target special attacks, is more important that the % of causing a condition is high, because indeed they hit only one target instead of multiple. I think probably is better in this case to start at 100% and change only the duration of the effect.

User avatar
jack1974
Pack leader
Posts: 14675
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2005 4:43 pm

Re: leveling skills (idea)

Post by jack1974 » Tue Mar 04, 2014 3:51 pm

Lol OK the experiment didn't last much. The way is coded the engine makes a total headache to change the effects duration based on skill level. Not Anima's fault since when he coded this system, leveling skills weren't even discussed. It would still be possible, but rather than spending 1 month on this I think I'll just go on with the game. I still want to discard the skilltree and let the player pick his own path though, choosing from any skills he want anytime. Will also probably add a few more skills each character :)

User avatar
yayswords
Elder Druid
Posts: 1436
Joined: Sat Jan 25, 2014 5:34 am

Re: leveling skills (idea)

Post by yayswords » Tue Mar 04, 2014 4:36 pm

But you had different durations on Loren skills. Would that UI take too much screen space? :P

If you don't wanna show 8x10 icons on the screen, you can have a path for each skill that shows the current level, the next level, and I guess the max level. Then it's just 8x3.
If at first try it doesn't explode, it ain't Jack who wrote the code.

User avatar
jack1974
Pack leader
Posts: 14675
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2005 4:43 pm

Re: leveling skills (idea)

Post by jack1974 » Tue Mar 04, 2014 4:44 pm

Well I wanted to have each skill different, if the only difference is the duration, isn't much good. Also, wanted to make the battle UI cleaner than Loren's, and having all the 3 levels for each skill was taking up too much space on screen.
However, might have found an alternative way, or another interesting thing to do. But before "announcing" it I want to have it working this time :lol:

User avatar
yayswords
Elder Druid
Posts: 1436
Joined: Sat Jan 25, 2014 5:34 am

Re: leveling skills (idea)

Post by yayswords » Tue Mar 04, 2014 4:52 pm

The damage should improve too. Also, if you keep mana cost and delay the same across skill levels, there's no reason you should want to use a lower level version, but then mana cost should be to some degree a percentage of your max mana so that gets tricky. If nothing else you can always have the UI by default only show the highest level of each skill during combat (or maybe the highest level you have the mana for), with an option for advanced players to show all levels. Or maybe show the highest you have mana for, plus the first level, in case you want to go for a debuff-only attack.
If at first try it doesn't explode, it ain't Jack who wrote the code.

Post Reply