On weapons

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Troyen
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Re: On weapons

Post by Troyen » Thu Jan 30, 2014 9:03 am

Might be too late for a reply...

What does "speed" mean on your list? Is that the time between shots? The time it takes for a character to be out of cover before firing? Something affecting initiative? It doesn't seem to be rate of fire, since you listed that separately.

I'm mostly asking because I saw the Assault Rifle listed as "Medium speed" despite having a full automatic mode, compared to a "High speed" pistol.

Also, what's the practical difference between "semi" and "burst" fire?

Is there a practical difference to the "special" mode or is it the same as "single shot" for heavy weaponry?

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Anima_
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Re: On weapons

Post by Anima_ » Thu Jan 30, 2014 11:07 am

Speed is a character attribute that affects initiative and delay. Weapons with Medium or Slow speed designation will have a speed penalty.
In practice burst fire will have one attack more than semi.
The only difference between single shot and special is the actions they unlock. Otherwise you would snipe with a rocket launcher.
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Darth Valer
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Re: On weapons

Post by Darth Valer » Mon Feb 10, 2020 9:06 am

Hi, I have a couple of questione concrerning weapons. First of all I've upgraded Michelle's skill for off-hand Damage to tier 5 but when I snapshot with her the second instance of damage Is still multiplied by 0.4

It works like this both with a mix of SMG / Pistola and double Pistol. Is it intended?

Second, I'm not sure how sniper rifles work. I'm trying to maximize Accuracy on May Scouts (Joshua included) buy their crit hit rates Is almost the same of the other classes... The snipe Attack (the one that requires 30 in delay)Is almost always a wadte of time and doesn't feel as rewarding as the other high-delay shots of other weapons and classes.

I'm mostly spamming aimed shots and even though the damage is certainly there I feel like criticatl shots are not as much a part of the Scout gameplay experience as I'd like. If possibile I'd like to know crit chance formulas (it'd be nice to see them in the combat log) and, if I'm missing something, what I'm missing in order ti maximize the Scout experience xD Thanks in Advance, really enjoying the game!

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jack1974
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Re: On weapons

Post by jack1974 » Mon Feb 10, 2020 9:32 am

First of all the info on this thread is outdated, since was made with another engine in mind which unfortunately was never finished.
So to get back on your questions:
1) I'm not sure if I understood what you mean? In theory the snap shot should work with only the pistol since SMG only have SemiAuto,Auto as attacks. But it's possible that something is going wrong, since dual wielding with different kind of weapons is indeed a bit of a pain to code with this system so something might be wrong
2) regarding rifles, instead I think they really kick asses. At least with Rebecca and Philipp, but even if your PC is a sniper should work the same.

Example, here Lisa is a Guardian using a machinegun:
Image
70 dmg (albeit distributed in 6 shots) and 15% hit, 4% critical

Rebecca aimed:
Image
60 dmg, 55% to hit and 11% critical !!! Basically more than twice (closer to x3) the to hit and accuracy, at HALF speed of the burst shot

Rebecca snipe:
Image
69 dmg, 68% hit and 13% critical, for same speed of burst shot

So yes I guess I could maybe raise a bit the critical on snipe, but not the damage, otherwise they'd be overpowered (they already are TBH :lol:)
However snipers play a different role than machineguns as you are probably aware. Machineguns are to tear down enemies armor, while snipers can finish them off (or their high damage lets them damage even higher amor enemies).

Last but not least sniper rifle have the highest critical (of course if compared to same level / rarity items), so if you do a critical with a pistol it will do much less damage than with a sniper rifle.

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jack1974
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Re: On weapons

Post by jack1974 » Mon Feb 10, 2020 9:37 am

Ah, the formula is as usual a mess and rather complex but here it is:

Code: Select all

    def ToCrit(pTarget,pUser,pAcc):
        if pTarget.isEmpty():
            return 1
        i=75+pUser.getValue("Accuracy")-pTarget.getValue("Speed")-pTarget.getValue("Evasion")
        i*=pAcc
        i+=(pUser.level-pTarget.level)
        if i<20:
            i=20
        return int(i/5)
basically with a base of 75%, add attacker's accuracy, subtract target speed/evasion, multiply resulting value by accuracy of the attack type, add the difference of levels (so level 10 against 8 gains +2%) and lastly it can't be lower than 20%

Darth Valer
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Re: On weapons

Post by Darth Valer » Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:38 am

jack1974 wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 9:37 am
Ah, the formula is as usual a mess and rather complex but here it is:

Code: Select all

    def ToCrit(pTarget,pUser,pAcc):
        if pTarget.isEmpty():
            return 1
        i=75+pUser.getValue("Accuracy")-pTarget.getValue("Speed")-pTarget.getValue("Evasion")
        i*=pAcc
        i+=(pUser.level-pTarget.level)
        if i<20:
            i=20
        return int(i/5)
basically with a base of 75%, add attacker's accuracy, subtract target speed/evasion, multiply resulting value by accuracy of the attack type, add the difference of levels (so level 10 against 8 gains +2%) and lastly it can't be lower than 20%
Nice! Thank you. Can I know what's the pAcc of the various attacks or, at least, the Sniper's ones?

Anyhow while I have two pistols equipped on Michelle with the skill "Dual Wield" at fifth rank, her Snap Shot attack deals the following damage:

Image

Is it inteded?

Anyhow the Snipe attack on Joshua only slightly increases Accuracy and crit chance while almost doubling the delay on his following turn. I almost never use it except if I really want that 3-4 dmg more in order to last-hit an enemy before he acts. I feel like an attack like that should almost double the crit chance while maybe taking an even longer delay. In general I feel like a Sniper in this game could use being even slower and having less turns but should crit much more often with aimed shot and almost always with Snipe, especially against slower targets. Maybe having all Sniper Rifles magazines with one or two bullets and with high reload time, but increased accuracy and/or pAcc modifier.

Anyhow I'm having lots of fun with the game and I'm finding it otherwise pretty balanced and delightfully challenging (on Nightmare Difficulty with Deafult enemy levels)

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jack1974
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Re: On weapons

Post by jack1974 » Mon Feb 10, 2020 12:13 pm

On Aimed Shot the pAcc is 1.3 (so basically 30% increase) while Snipe is 1.6.
However I think you're right in the fact that there isn't a big advantage using Snipe over Aimed, so I agree that I should change it. I will make some experiments as you suggested, maybe lowering the ammo and delay but higher damage (need to be careful though to not be able to kill ANY enemy with just one shot since could break some boss fights!).

Regarding Michelle: from the log it seems fine, I mean since she is dual wielding, in this case does a snap shot with the Pistol and the SMG. Normally the SMG wouldn't have snap shot (only the Pistol) but I decided to do it like this otherwise would make no sense to use dual wield at all - like I'm using two guns but I'll fire just with one. Seems a bit crazy :lol:

The damage instead not, if you maxed dual wield, the offhand should deal full damage and not only 40% so that's a bug yes, thanks for spotting it (I thought was working but evidently not, will check).

Glad you're having fun and finding the game well balanced - I never dared playing it in Nightmare myself, only Hard :)

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jack1974
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Re: On weapons

Post by jack1974 » Mon Feb 10, 2020 4:15 pm

I've just pushed an update that should fix both the problems you found!

Darth Valer
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Re: On weapons

Post by Darth Valer » Mon Feb 10, 2020 6:09 pm

jack1974 wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 4:15 pm
I've just pushed an update that should fix both the problems you found!
That was fast and amazing :o

I'm still having the problem with Michelle, though. The off-hand attack keeps dealing 1 damage. In the screenshot I sent she had two pistols equipped with something like 28-30 damage. Her off-hand weapon dealt 5 damage multiplied by 0.4. Now it correctly shows 100% instead of 40%, but I keep getting a low value (like 5) for the off-hand attack and the overall damage is still 1 since resistances and defense are factored in.

The Dual Weapon ability states that normally the off-hand weapon deals 25% damage. In my opinion the value "5" is the equivalent of that 25% somewhere in the code which incorrectly multiplies the Damage value of the off-hand weapon before Dual Weapon comes in.

The fact is: even with this alleged big bug, Michelle is the top damage dealer in my team. Right now she's at 3780 damage dealt, with Damien second at 3730 and Joshua at 3195. They are the charachters I've used the most.

I've been spamming Snapshots while dual wielding with her and considering her high speed she's been able to dish out tons and tons of damage while wittling down the enemy defense. I think if she starts dealing actual double damage (with 100% output on the secondary weapon instead of 25%) she might become godlike. If the system is actually not working as intended I'd go from 25 >>> 100% offhand damage (with Dual Weapon) to something like 30 >>> 80 %.

I also tried to start a new game on 7.3.0 and the secondary pistol dealt 0 damage in the log (while having 3 Damage in the inventory menu). I also had 1 rank in Dual Wield.

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jack1974
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Re: On weapons

Post by jack1974 » Mon Feb 10, 2020 6:29 pm

Weird, yes it's definitely a bug. And I agree, even after I fix it the values needs to go down!

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