Fight Avoiding

The tale of the siblings Althea and Shea https://www.winterwolves.com/seasonsofthewolf.htm
kadakithis
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Re: Fight Avoiding

Post by kadakithis »

I play most games on normal and have played more difficult games, and I didn't find SotW difficult at all, in fact I died more in Loren because one fame thing made everyone way more powerful than me.

SotW was more long and a bit more repetitive than Loren which had more variety to build up characters during level up, shorter combats, less resource management, and the gameplay variety between was larger as compared to just mostly fighting. I actually love fighting RPGs, but I had to think of fights more often, even when not fighting, such as potions and a whole lot more variety of equipment, which felt impossible to keep up with. Lorens combat was great because it was quick, sometimes deadly, but it made the story more fun and worthwhile for me, SotW had a great story but the busywork of the combat made it less fun, and more of a "oh, no attacked again, do I use more SP to get the fight over quickly or conserve my energy and slog through?" For Loren I enjoyed Grinding, for SotW the combat was easier than Loren once I figured the correct build, but very boring and long, that the required fights were less fun than grinding.

I liked Loren's combat more to how dynamic it was. And while I truly loved SotW, and it had a great story and the events worked with that, also very different from most stories in the Fantasy genre I get these days, I didn't find the combat fun. But that may be that I always preferred turned base games to be quick, but real time games can have more variety and avoid getting repetitive.
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jack1974
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Re: Fight Avoiding

Post by jack1974 »

Yeah, long battles will be completely out of discussion for all future RPGs, that's sure. I'm even planning one without any healing potions or spells right now (Queen Of Thieves) to make sure they can't be long :mrgreen:
Good also if people think that Loren had more skills variety on level up... each char had two classes, of which the first was always one of the three (Warrior, Thief, Mage) and then a custom for each one. But each class had only 5 unique skills, with 3 levels variations. Compared to the 12 skills of each class in SOTW, there are HALF the skills in Loren (unique) each class. So less work for me, better! (considering also the bigger cast of Loren 2 and so on).
kadakithis
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Re: Fight Avoiding

Post by kadakithis »

I guess for me the difference was that Loren they were few but the leveling up and future variety was intact. Getting to level 25 would give me about 13 skills.

In Season of the Wolf, 13 skills (which admittedly requires a higher level) would buy the whole tree and 1 in the universal tree, which really had limited scope in how it may help a particular character. In Loren, 13 skills means deciding what you want at the highest level and they built off each other, so 4 max skills out of 10, and 1 extra. But there is less choice involved.It felt weird getting the best abilities right out the bat, so with each level you are getting a lower priority choice, rather than building it up. I can get all my spellcasters to cast all the elements within a few levels at their highest strength, while with Loren, at level 25 if you only spend only 1 in buff trees, you barely have that, so weirdly enough, there was way more practice and variety in how you level them up. Do I want Draco to be excellant in Fire before he can cast Air? Myrth is the healer or damage dealer? It offered more when leveling up.

But glad to hear about short combat, I just hope the non healing one doesn't use resource management, it will be a nightmare! (but at least a fun nightmare! ) I really enjoyed both games, but SotW is more combat oriented so I may be biased that I like combat but lean more toward dialogue and story as where I get enjoyment from a game. To me I play games like the Story is the prize, and the Combat makes it feel like I earned it, I often get bored with games that are portrayed that the combat is the reward in itself, so take what I say with a grain of salt.
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jack1974
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Re: Fight Avoiding

Post by jack1974 »

kadakithis wrote: But glad to hear about short combat, I just hope the non healing one doesn't use resource management, it will be a nightmare! (but at least a fun nightmare! ) I really enjoyed both games, but SotW is more combat oriented so I may be biased that I like combat but lean more toward dialogue and story as where I get enjoyment from a game. To me I play games like the Story is the prize, and the Combat makes it feel like I earned it, I often get bored with games that are portrayed that the combat is the reward in itself, so take what I say with a grain of salt.
Yes is clear the kind of players you are, and I know others thinks differently (like fabulaparva in this forum and others).
Is OK to have different opinions and tastes. Though your kind of player seems to be the majority of potential future buyers (comparing Loren vs SOTW) so obviously I'm more interested (or forced to be interested!) in :mrgreen:

Another thing, and I answer about the question about the other game... the fact is that beside the amount of battles, I also spent an INCREDIBLE amount of time to balance the battles/AI in SOTW, with the only result of making them longer and (for most people) boring. In this other RPG (Queen Of Thieves) I'll have max 3 party members, so this will already reduce the time (I think 6 people party is too big to be honest) and also make the battle shorter will be easier to balance them, so I won't even need to spend (waste) so much time again with the battles :)
Troyen
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Re: Fight Avoiding

Post by Troyen »

It'd be interesting to compare the average number of fights. My take is that the SotW "optional" fights were more in-your-face and perhaps people clicked on those red arrows far more than they needed to (I certainly did). Also, the length and repetitiveness of the random fights (even in terms of what mobs you got and in which setup) didn't help.

The balanced AI might not be so bad if healing was nerfed or limited all around. In general, I liked it when they took smarter decisions (though it was frustrating that they cheat and are almost never affected by running out of SP, which also prolonged fight length). Or if you do have healing, make it like a once-per-fight thing (for players and enemies).
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Franka
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Re: Fight Avoiding

Post by Franka »

I did both, first I clicked on everything I possibly could, then I played a game where I avoided as many fights as possible. I'll be honest, I had more fun the second time, but that was because I was breaking the game all the time. ;)

Nah, I have no real big issues with lots of fights the first time I play a game, but if I then want to see additional romances, etc. I really want to get there, not get bogged down by fighting. I'm all for New Game+ or something, anything, that will make second, third, fourth games faster to get through.
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jack1974
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Re: Fight Avoiding

Post by jack1974 »

Troyen wrote:It'd be interesting to compare the average number of fights. My take is that the SotW "optional" fights were more in-your-face and perhaps people clicked on those red arrows far more than they needed to (I certainly did). Also, the length and repetitiveness of the random fights (even in terms of what mobs you got and in which setup) didn't help.
That's what I think too... when you see such inviting red arrows... you can't resist clicking them! :mrgreen:
Troyen wrote: The balanced AI might not be so bad if healing was nerfed or limited all around. In general, I liked it when they took smarter decisions (though it was frustrating that they cheat and are almost never affected by running out of SP, which also prolonged fight length). Or if you do have healing, make it like a once-per-fight thing (for players and enemies).
Yes maybe instead of just limiting "healing" another valid solution is to limit SP. That's what I'm doing on QoT as well. I think a problem of SOTW (and maybe also of Loren) is that the skills weren't "impressive". I want a skill that when used makes a big difference from the normal attacks. I also want players to be able to use 2-3 skills each fight for each character max. So they need to think where / when to use them, and not just use strategies to refill SP and spam skills to overthrow the enemies (is a valid tactic in the current system).

I think that if are too long/frequent most battle systems are in the long run boring. For example I love the King's Bounty series, I've played a lot, but now I have a save in the recent Vikings DLC and... after 2-3 fights they all become very similar. And I'm talking about one of the best tactical RPGs/strategy games ever made (not just in my opinion) :o
kadakithis
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Re: Fight Avoiding

Post by kadakithis »

jack1974 wrote: I think that if are too long/frequent most battle systems are in the long run boring. For example I love the King's Bounty series, I've played a lot, but now I have a save in the recent Vikings DLC and... after 2-3 fights they all become very similar. And I'm talking about one of the best tactical RPGs/strategy games ever made (not just in my opinion) :o
Indeed. I feel similarly toward SotW. I like the fights but just fighting seems to have a repetitive effect. I really like the idea of 2 or 3 skills. In that case I don't think healing has to be gotten rid of entirely if it cost more SP than most, healing by one character seems more special rather than a spam, the only problem with this method is regular attacks are boring, and do less damage, and might be even more repetitive if that is the only recourse.
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jack1974
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Re: Fight Avoiding

Post by jack1974 »

Well in QoT I use combo attacks, so it's a bit different :) For Loren 2 the coder has found a very good system, that we're still testing now but seems quite promising. But no matter how is done, either by limiting SP or some other means the battles should be shorter, except maybe for the big boss battles :)
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Elmsdor
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Re: Fight Avoiding

Post by Elmsdor »

Fight avoiding sounds wrong :P They should just be uber fast instead.

Back on console rpgs, you would normally enjoy at least 1000+ combats. But hey usually end in 1-2 rounds, 3-4 at most. Boss battles can be 10-15 min siestas like in Loren.

I personally enjoyed SoTW difficulty. I struggled hugely in chapter 1-2 when no one had skills or equipment to survive properly.

For minion battles, I think Loren had the right difficulty, check the Reputation battles for the minion strength levels. 4 skill hits will dispatch them. Using aoe speeds up the process at cost of SP, which is what battles before bosses are meant to do.

I enjoy tactical rpgs to be just that, grind and tactics. And the romance is a damn good reward for it. If I wanted less tactical combat for an rpg, I'd get a Visual Novel :P

I wonder how many people would be annoyed if Loren 2 had too much combat and not enough romance :?

What? :P

Cheers
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