The ideal solution is to have both Like in SOTW, there's the possibility to still have the happy ending even if is hard to achieve (but honestly in Easy mode if you equip your team in a decent way is not difficult at all to beat Deceit). Even Loren originally had a sad ending which could be "fixed" in the DLC
Well, in hindsight the word "flaming" was obviously a bad choice from me. I put it there because as I've understood that the happy ending was added because of popular demand from the forums, I was more trying to warn anyone reading my comment that I shall now have the audacity to say that I dislike what was put there upon request. Not really expecting to be flamed as such. Anyways, the game still allows me to have my unhappy ending so if I can just resist not taking on that awesome boss fight, I can still have that. So it's not like I've lost anything because it's there. Just typing out when in my opinion something doesn't make sense in the story's own universe. Similarly in Dragonlance: Test of the Twins:
Spoiler:
what happens to Raistlin kills me every time. But when I look at the story leading to that, I can't have it any other way, either. So if he would have had a happy ending at that point, I probably would have never bought the book + series (read it first in library) and reread the whole story, but instead burnt the damn thing down and then paid a fee to the libr....ok...exaggerating there...
I do understand that many play games only once and they want to pursue only one romance and if that's the one with a bad ending, it's not a good experience. I on the other hand usually try to play all paths. So for me having one sad ending among four paths is actually a bonus in form of variety. And as said, it's still there.
Haha yes exactly! One thing is if I changed the game permanently to have only one of the two endings, but since I'm offering every player a choice... what else do you want!?!?!??
I agree that with now happy endings are a bit too frequent. The occasional tragic ending feels like a breath of fresh air, and in this case I felt that the Chalassa unhappy ending was more interesting than the happy one.
Honestly, the happy ending for Chalassa made me wish I hadn't spent so much time figuring out how to kill Deceit.
Personally I prefer bittersweet endings, because completely happy ones often feel unrealistic and contrived, while outright bad ones feel frustrating, especially in games since you've spent so much time and effort getting to the end.
Minamber wrote:I agree that with now happy endings are a bit too frequent. The occasional tragic ending feels like a breath of fresh air, and in this case I felt that the Chalassa unhappy ending was more interesting than the happy one.
Honestly, the happy ending for Chalassa made me wish I hadn't spent so much time figuring out how to kill Deceit.
Personally I prefer bittersweet endings, because completely happy ones often feel unrealistic and contrived, while outright bad ones feel frustrating, especially in games since you've spent so much time and effort getting to the end.
The happy ending rainbow of unrealism and contrivetude!!!
My favorite place for stories to end ^.^
EDIT: well shit, it wont let me use lots of spaces... it still works without the drawing but I thought it added to the silliness... Ill hide it so it doesn't take up space
Last edited by iWeasle on Tue Oct 28, 2014 10:45 pm, edited 3 times in total.
lol indeed I don't know what that ASCII art was supposed to look
I think the sad ending is better than the happy too, in particular if you romanced her, the ending dialogue is quite good IMHO. Anyway as said this way I made happy everyone. I think it deserved it since it was a game with so few romances, that killing a specific possible couple was bad. In Loren's case even if you killed Mesphit you still had many other GxB / BxB romances to choose
jack1974 wrote:lol indeed I don't know what that ASCII art was supposed to look
I think the sad ending is better than the happy too, in particular if you romanced her, the ending dialogue is quite good IMHO. Anyway as said this way I made happy everyone. I think it deserved it since it was a game with so few romances, that killing a specific possible couple was bad. In Loren's case even if you killed Mesphit you still had many other GxB / BxB romances to choose
I'm sure the sad ending is very touching and well written , I just don't want to cry . I agree with the whole idea of, at least if you're going to kill a romance option, don't let them be one of the only ones, ty! .
PS: it was supposed to be a (pretty lousy) rainbow
Brilliant game really enjoyed it and I hope I didn't give the impression I disliked it despite struggling with Deceit and Jul.
Only done one romance path so far so I am looking forward to what Jariel, Krimm and Riley have to offer.
First playthrough impressions
Positive
+Multiple outfits for each character when you see AAA games offer less you know this is a winning quality right here. The extra effort was appreciated and Riley's winter outfit was awesome.
+ So many options compared with previous games. There is plenty to do and it makes the next playthroughs more exciting.
+Well written cast they came across as much darker over all than the last few games but I appreciate it as a lot of main stream games are too afraid to tackle darker themes. I even still liked Krimm after...
Spoiler:
I found out the truth about her which was extremely petty and downright villainous but it added more depth to her character and she did seek redeemption for her heinous actions.
Riley good fun, Jariel such a pretty face but doesn't hesitate to kick ass when he needs to. Rowinda just plain crazy but I love that. Vaelis was really deep too and I enjoyed what he added to the story. Shea and Althea were good fun as well still hard to beat a female character like Loren though I just love her too much.
+Combat I felt was much more challenging overall compared to Loren which is a good thing as I remember beating Loren on normal without any problems at all.
+Loved the map layout it feels much more interactive like you really get to know the world must have been a lot of extra effort on your part but it was appreciated.
+Loved all the references to Loren too this game brought the world more to life. Also the Jul teaser both a positive and a negative because now I can't wait for Loren 2.
+Chalassa romance was lovely seen both the sad and the good I like both for different reasons but Chalassa on the whole is my favourite character of the game so badass yet so tragic at the same time. I have fallen in love with her just like I did with Loren
+The engine is a lot better and much smoother compared to previous games.
+Despite the limited romances compared to the previous games I can't speak for the others yet but Chalassa was well done and thank you for going out of your way to offer multiple ends with her when you didn't have to.
Negative
-Don't know if it was just me but I often didn't get very good equips on offer at the shops normally what I got from fighting was a lot better. I only went to shops for potions mostly.
-Hate to say this but I have to agree with others when the plot lost focus a little in chapter 3 not really a negative more of a nitpick really. I still enjoyed how it tied into the rest of the game.
-Would have loved more socialising events to be honest your dialogue in one on ones with each character is brilliant shame there wasn't more and that the bath house is only chapter 3. This is both a negative and a positive at the same time because I enjoyed the characters so much
That is about it. Another great addition to the winterwolves line up so well done. It further expands the world of Loren and builds up a lot of anticipation for the next Loren game. It must have been exhausting doing such a long game but the effort was well worth it so congrats on a job well done. Going to reccomend the game to others I know.
Last edited by vexingaura on Wed Oct 29, 2014 11:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
Well, act four went a lot faster than I was expecting! Beware, this post is a bit long.
Overall, I liked the story. Act 2 by far was my favorite. There were even some portions of the game that I wished we could just skip fights so I could get back to the story. I think combat was a little too frequent in some areas, which definitely hurt the pacing of the story.
Spoiler:
The two that stand out in my mind are during Riley's quest and hunting for the assassin. I think Riley's flashback was a bit of a missed opportunity. It seemed like you could do cool awesome Riley stunts to avoid combat, but nope - most of the time you end up fighting guards (and the same guards in the same pattern, no less) over and over. The assassin was up to something sneaky and everyone else was in a rush, but you had to slog through fight after fight of nearly identical slaves, by which point I'm sure the assassin would've been finished and gone already.
On the other hand, I really liked it when the combat and the story were integrated together. Those were also generally the more memorable battles, because they were different.
Spoiler:
Especially during the arena breakout, I felt that was the best part in the game. The fights were cool and awesome stuff was happening with Rowinda/Chalassa.
I liked most of the character interactions, and I definitely feel we got to see more of our party talk than we did in Loren. (The downside to large casts is there's less screen-time for everyone. Even 8 is pushing it.)
Rowinda was really entertaining, especially in act 2 and the end of act 3, but I did find the volcano jokes a little annoying after the second time. Riley was great to listen to pretty much all the time (and I really liked how the first battle with him on your team went, and especially how the characters were talking about it for a while afterwards). Jariel is actually the one character I didn't like so much. Hard to say why, maybe he was a little too optimistic about everything, as if he doesn't have any other emotions besides nonchalance or being upbeat.
Krimm...
Spoiler:
I liked her through most of the game, but I wanted someone to strangle her in Act 4. It's like she suddenly got dumber and tried forcing a fight on everything right after the whole sequence about how she had just caused her clan so much grief with her notions of honor and battle.
I think there were a couple missed opportunities in the game, that could've added a little extra touch:
Spoiler:
Maybe I'm not remembering it correctly, but I don't think Morrow actually goes through a goodbye with the characters after you talk to Leif. He yells at you to get out of his house, but he also left the room before the twins learned about Ninim. I would've thought he'd say something about the rumors around their town and wish them luck or so. Likewise, I don't think there was much closure with the alchemist or the blacksmith - one or two lines of farewell if you dropped by their shop would've been a nice touch.
I think having Marrow accompany the party on the empire quests (which I presume are the main Shacklespit quests?) would've helped keep a common theme going through act 3. It wouldn't tie it to the earlier part of the game (unless you raided Dingerrans once or twice), but it would've felt less like I was borrowing his yacht for random errands. I was a little disappointed that he didn't actually play all that big of a role in the act. I show up to free his men and after that I'm just doing whatever. (Then again, I am someone who doesn't mind a linear game, as long as it has a good story.)
I don't think Chalassa said why she wanted to go to Ninim? I mean, it might be implied if you're in a relationship with her, but everyone else had an explicit reason.
This one isn't directly about the story, but Vaelis' house is in the game, and we never get to drop by. We're always told "we don't have a reason to go there" or "Vaelis isn't home right now" (of course not, he's in my party!) You'd think in Act 4 he'd want to sleep at his house instead of the tavern.
Why can't we see the ruins of the twins' house in act 4? We're told the forest is too dangerous, but we go around fighting demon-monsters and beasts anyway, including traveling north of the place. It was such a central location in act 1.
I feel like the wolf should've had a bigger role in act 4, especially given all the setup in act 1.
And then some random comments, in no particular order...
Spoiler:
As some other people mentioned, Act 4 felt a little abrupt. I honestly wasn't expecting it to end with talking to the spirit bear, I thought there was more coming (especially since we level up during chapter 19!), but nope. There was probably more set-up for the possible destruction of Ninim than there was actual time spent dealing with the menaces of Ninim. However, overall, the game is probably long enough as it is.
I did not pick up on any clues about the twins' plot twist at all. (I actually was predicting the wolf killed Morran while Althea was gone or vice-versa before I heard Leif's tale.) A more clear clue might've been if instead of vanishing, the giant wolf had turned into an elf body (that the twins wouldn't recognize because they don't know their mother)...though Vaelis probably would have, so that might not have worked.
I honestly thought the spirit bear was going to take me to someone that said "hey, those are the guys that were killing and skinning bears and wolves in act 1!" Especially if you defeated the Kodiak, he'd be there going "nope, those elves are evil, kill them Spirit Bear!". Fortunately that wasn't the case!
I don't know why, but I think the epilogue lacked feeling (I did the Chalassa happy ending). When I finished Loren (the original, pre-expansion), reading the epilogue was like watching the conclusion of a movie trilogy. Reading the ending to SotW wasn't moving in the same way; it didn't feel like witnessing the end of a long journey. Maybe this is because Act 3 sidetracked the main plot and the homecoming in Act 4 was so abbreviated? I don't know. It just feels like it ended, though not really because they all leave at the end to do more stuff.
The dark cultists in Ninim seemed kind of random. Especially how the Dingerrans showed up around the same time for their hunting parties, and the two never seemed to interact.
I'm a little confused about the reach of the Empire. Per the quests in Act 3, I was under the impression that they were on another continent across the ocean, and thus far away from home. Yet, at times in Act 4, it sounded like the Empire had had a major presence on this continent in the past. For example, the discussion about the gnoll toll booth I believe referenced a treaty with the Empire...who don't live on this continent.
I did like the references to the rest of the world. It did feel like these places were part of the overall Loren world.
These comments are more about mechanics than the writing, but I don't know where else to put them:
Spoiler:
I think difficulty hinges way too much on "pump up the boss stats to absurd levels and give them mass AoE skills with no delay". I enjoyed the Grand Mogul boss fight, despite him ressing the warrior about seven times, because it felt like I was able to use my character's skills in combinations to win, even if I had to adjust my strategy on the fly if he did something I didn't expect. In contrast, I didn't enjoy Deceit, Jul, Minotaur, or Spirit Bear so much because their difficulty lies in having a huge defense/speed and spamming massive attacks before I can react. Seriously, the Spirit Bear is tough mostly because he has 282 defense and 333 speed on Nightmare, so 75% of the time I can't even hit him, even with my primary melee characters. Then he heals to full and I'm stuck with dodge, dodge, block, 23 damage, dodge and then I die.
I'd honestly rather hit mobs for low damage than not hit at all. And I'd rather fight a boss with 2000 HP that can't heal than one with 1000 that heals to full every other round. At least with the 2000 HP boss I stand a chance if I went survival or AoE - all I have to do is survive his attacks long enough to win (and nobody said that has to be easy), but bosses that heal force you into the skills that do lots of burst damage...at a stage in the game where you can't easily pick up new skills.
Another thing that frustrates me is there are apparently different rules for mobs and players, and the UI isn't always truthful about that. I had no idea stagger wasn't actually reducing enemy stats until yayswords pointed it out, because the tooltip said it might and it definitely reduces stats on my characters! Draining SP is rarely a viable strategy because some enemies and bosses can cast spells even at 0 SP - including one offender in the middle of the game whose name escapes me that can heal at 0 SP. It's tough to build a strategy when you can't apply your knowledge of game mechanics to an enemy fight because they get to break all the rules you have to follow.
A lot of skill restrictions make them not really worth taking. Most skills that you can't use on bosses are a shame because bosses are usually the time when you have to break out the creative skills to overcome the boss challenge. Some skills are just too restrictive in general. (Good luck trying to stagger an enemy in the back row without a hunter for Krimm's Pull. And Riley's SP burn skill doesn't even work on normal mobs when their SP hits a certain %, which makes it a pretty weak skill, since you burn SP to prevent heals/resurrects.)
Leveling stats stopped being useful somewhere in the teens. The first act or two I felt like my stat points made a difference - Con and Will kept me going, Str and Arcane were letting me do more damage, and Agi was letting me go first. Around act 3, stats stopped mattering. It no longer made a difference that I dumped 30 points into Agility at the expense of other stats or bought gear with +45 speed (cumulative) because bosses would start at speed levels I couldn't hope to reach (250+). It didn't matter that I put 45 points into Strength because most bosses have 280+ defense near the end of the game...compared to my 100 attack (with the Attacker trait and attack gear). Con/Will were technically useful, but I stopped putting points there because my problems were all related to not enough burst damage (and I was scrambling to keep up with rising enemy defense). Not to mention, leveling stats got slower at the same time enemy stats got more inflated because stat increases become more expensive at 20 (okay) and 40 (essentially 1 stat point a level). Oh, and there's no gear in act 4 to compensate.
I'm still not fully happy with the shop system. It worked way better than Loren's did, but around the middle of Act 3, it was difficult to find actual upgrades for my characters. At the point in the game where I suddenly earn 20,000 gold, I had almost nothing to spend it on. Yes, there was a gambling shop and I tried him about 15 times, but only once did he give me actual usable items. Most of the item drops in the wild I didn't use (there were a few exceptions). I was expecting some source of HP regen aside from the two or three unique amulets that had it, but it was a virtually non-existant stat (and I don't think HP regen is quite as game-breaking as SP regen).
I always have a hard time exiting out of the party menu. If I click the wolf paw to look at stuff, I have to remember to click the X in the corner. Hitting escape brings up the game menu, which isn't quite what I want.
A few things that worked amazingly well:
- I like the engine improvements. The game feels more responsive (Loren would lag like crazy on selecting abilities during battle, for example), and I can actually play for a few hours on battery power.
- The map system was very nice, and I hope you use it again in future games. (Even if it takes more work.)
- The quest/location counters complement the map mechanic well.
- I really liked the music.
- I really liked the fights that integrated with the story. (Like when after a few turns there'd be some story sequence and then the fight setup would change dramatically, but it's still the same fight.)
Overall, I'd say I'm glad I bought the game and am looking forward to the next Winter Wolves RPG, even if it will be a zombie yuri adventure.
Like in SOTW, there's the possibility to still have the happy ending even if is hard to achieve (but honestly in Easy mode if you equip your team in a decent way is not difficult at all to beat Deceit). Even Loren originally had a sad ending which could be "fixed" in the DLC 
I put it there because as I've understood that the happy ending was added because of popular demand from the forums, I was more trying to warn anyone reading my comment that I shall now have the audacity to say that I dislike what was put there upon request. Not really expecting to be flamed as such. Anyways, the game still allows me to have my unhappy ending so if I can just resist not taking on that awesome boss fight, I can still have that. So it's not like I've lost anything because it's there. Just typing out when in my opinion something doesn't make sense in the story's own universe. Similarly in Dragonlance: Test of the Twins:
. I agree with the whole idea of, at least if you're going to kill a romance option, don't let them be one of the only ones, ty! 
