Let's talk about traits

The tale of the siblings Althea and Shea https://www.winterwolves.com/seasonsofthewolf.htm
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jack1974
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Re: Let's talk about traits

Post by jack1974 » Thu Jul 31, 2014 7:16 am

Updated the post with a screenshot using a leveling dual wield :)
Actually the two weapon give already a big bonus, I mean you can have double bonus attributes vs a 2h one. So even if they do less damage in the end I think would be perfectly fine since you can get more attack/defense/etc with two weapons ?

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jack1974
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Re: Let's talk about traits

Post by jack1974 » Thu Jul 31, 2014 7:30 am

Did some testing on DW powerleveling Chalassa :mrgreen:
She was at level 18, while the other Warriors at level 9, so a BIG GAP. Attacking a poor Kiduu Pikeman as test dummy, results:
Chalassa: Attack 62 = 29 dmg with the new dual wield (leveling)
Krimm: Attack 47 = 20-26 dmg
Althea ranger: Attack 37 = 16-21 dmg

Chalassa was using Rare/Masterwork level 9 dagger weapons while Krimm a lvl 5 rare staff and Althea just a lvl 6 normal warhammer (albeit with high dmg). I think this way might be fine, of course you'll need to try with more powerful weapons, since daggers have lower damage than a normal 1h sword, but considering the extreme test (Chalassa was DOUBLE the level!!) I think now should be fine! :)

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yayswords
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Re: Let's talk about traits

Post by yayswords » Thu Jul 31, 2014 7:32 am

Actually the two weapon give already a big bonus, I mean you can have double bonus attributes vs a 2h one.
Yes, that is true, but I'm not sure if it makes DW better for a ranger/hunter. For Jariel and Chalassa sure, they can pick their melee weapons entirely based on bonuses and carry them around as stat sticks, because they don't hit with them anyway. Not sure they can even use twohanders anyway...

But I really really must protest against scaling % gains. You wouldn't do it for anything else, why for dual wield? Is it some game plan that dual wield becomes overpowered at level x? In an ideal world with perfect game design, +1 magic/level is as exciting at every level. Now it might turn out that +10 magic at level 10 is more/less exciting than +20 magic at level 20, but you couldn't make the game that perfect if you spent the rest of your life on it. Not an insult - none of us could.

Let's say that on average, a twohander does 50% more damage than a onehander. The 1h does 10, then the 2h does 15. Dual wielding would give 10+2.5=12.5; worse than the 15. But then that DW trait decides to scale with its % and at some point it gives another +25% offhand damage, so it's 15 vs. 15. And then it's +50% offhand damage, so it's +75% total and we have 10+7.5=17.5, now better than the twohander. And if I need to point it out, the 50% more damage on 2h vs. 1h obviously is thematic to the game so even if it's 100 vs. 150 it's not changing the fact that DW (175) at this point has overtaken 2h (150). Unless you for some reason want to design the game so that onehanders progressively get weaker (in damage ratio compared to twohanders) as we progress, you're still gonna end up with that situation fabulaparva posted, just against the end boss instead of Mormont. Plus it'd be the only trait you would wait until level x with getting because it ages like a good wine.
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jack1974
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Re: Let's talk about traits

Post by jack1974 » Thu Jul 31, 2014 7:37 am

Check the post I just made with some test numbers, I think is fine. You'll never reach 75%, at max 55% and from my test doesn't seem to matter much at least for the damage done (more testing would be needed of course).

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yayswords
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Re: Let's talk about traits

Post by yayswords » Thu Jul 31, 2014 7:40 am

Yes I saw your numbers. Obviously there is a % that makes for a sweet spot. Before that you'd be stupid to dual wield (even with the trait), and after that you'd be stupid to use a twohander (unless you don't have the trait). The only reason to keep that version of the trait would be to find that sweet spot, agree on it and lock the trait to that %.

Insight into weapon stats is quite relevant for this discussion though, I might note the best 2h/1h damage I can find so we get a proper ratio to use for the comparison.
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jack1974
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Re: Let's talk about traits

Post by jack1974 » Thu Jul 31, 2014 7:43 am

Remember that sometimes is not all about stats but also about roleplaying - some characters would never use a 2H even if in theory the raw stats say is better for damage. But Chalassa with a big 2H sword!?!? nonsense!! she wouldn't look sexy as with the daggers :mrgreen:

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yayswords
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Re: Let's talk about traits

Post by yayswords » Thu Jul 31, 2014 7:47 am

Well that's a funny character to bring up considering how little the trait helps her :)

I just think we should be able to come up with a design concept where dual wield vs. 2h can be a playstyle choice, or a tactical choice, but not down to "do you have ze magical trait?"

The trait made sense as a skill in Loren's tree because she always dual wielded. Here it's even available to characters who couldn't figure out how to put a weapon in each hand if their lives depended on it lol.
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fabulaparva
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Re: Let's talk about traits

Post by fabulaparva » Thu Jul 31, 2014 7:51 am

In the situation I posted, Shea was wielding two common level 5 weapons (air and water), both with 15 dmg, while the shops in Ninim were offering max 24-26 dmg 2h weapons (levels 5 and 6). Hammers with more than 20dmg tend to cost pretty heavily on the speed side (e.g. they are too slow ) to me in Ninim. That's one more reason why DW seems lucrative for me, even without the overpowering. :P

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yayswords
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Re: Let's talk about traits

Post by yayswords » Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:10 am

So about a 3:5 ratio, pretty much what I'm seeing right now in act 2 as well. That would mean 0.6+0.15=0.75 traitless dual wielding vs. the 1 of a twohander, which would put the sweet spot at +5/12 or 41.67%, but make it 40 or 45 for a nice round number, or in less nerdy language: Make the offhand do 2/3 damage with the trait. Then dual wield still has the double stats advantage, assuming our two anecdote research into weapon damage is reliable lol.

As for weapon speed BTW, I think damage is a huge factor on a weapon, trumping pretty much everything else, but I don't have the speed formulas before me :P I always buy hammers.
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jack1974
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Re: Let's talk about traits

Post by jack1974 » Thu Jul 31, 2014 9:43 am

So I should give up the leveling dual wield and put a fixed 45% for dual wield with the trait? or should be +45% beside the base that is 25% = 70-75% (you said 2/3) ?

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