Hatred and erotic stuff

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iWeasle
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Re: Hatred and erotic stuff

Post by iWeasle » Tue Dec 23, 2014 10:35 pm

fabulaparva wrote:I read the very extensive review for Sakura Spirit at VNs NOW. I came to the conclusion that I won't touch that <censored> thing. It is beyond me why Loren's few scenes at the end (and missing formal rating) would be an issue but other game that consists (apparently) nothing but smut is okay just because the dreaded female nipple doesn't show up >.< This is a major problem with all ratings that are based solely on number of nipples and lists of cursewords without taking the context into consideration. Yes, there is erotic stuff in Loren. Not showing full frontals of female/male genitalia does not mean that sex is only implied and not shown. Yes, there's making love in Loren. :shock: But the thing is, in Loren this is in perspective and it's not hurtful, it's not demeaning, it's not exploitative and it's not something that's there for cheap thrills only. There are games that show way less than Loren do, but have way more hurtful content as far as things that the ratings should be looking out for go. But the thing is: nipples are easy to count. Number of times "blacklisted words" are said is easy to count. Putting content into context is not easy.

Okay. Better shut up now before I really start to rant, lol.
According to the reviews I've read, the game is actually fairly well written. If you don't want to buy the game yourself there's nothing wrong with that, but isn't it a little immature to say that you won't play it simply because it didn't get censored while a game you like did? Every piece of media should be graded on it's own merit, not on whether or not another game got snubbed. I wasn't trying to incite rage against Sakura Spirit, I was just trying to point out that the system is flawed and has a very arbitrary way around it. Sakura Spirit played the system, while Loren just made the game they wanted. Neither approach is intrinsically better, just different. The point is, nothing is making you play the game, but if you want to have a reason not to play the game, don't make it that it got around the system while Loren didn't. That's like the people who won't watch a movie because it won an award they thought should have gone to their favorite movie. It's not the movies fault, just as it isn't the game. So while you have absolutely no obligation to even give it a chance, don't declare that you will never play it for a reason that has nothing to do with the game itself, it's degrading to both you, and the game, and it's honestly kind of embarrassing. I'm not trying to offend you, or insult you, it's simply unbecoming of someone to hate something simply because it was treated differently than something else. Yes, jack's games are probably better, and yes, Sakura Spirit got artificial inflation of it's sales from people just buying it for sexual content, but is that really a reason to hate it?
jack1974 wrote:Haha, thanks. I agree with what you said. Get used to see more stuff like Sakura on Steam though, especially as it sold EXTREMELY well. While I don't know the real figures, based on the chart positions it had, is easy to say that probably sold 3-4 times Loren's.
I haven't played that game, but based on reviews I've read it has like 1 choice and stop. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong if someone wants to make a game like that, but being rewarded so much compared to a product like Loren... is a big LOL for me.
In times like this, one has to wonder why put so much effort creating a good RPG experience, using great writers able to bring beautiful characters to life, spend time/money on this and then see stuff like that earn a lot more with much less effort!
For me the answer is easy: work ethics and fans' support. But not everyone is like me :lol:
Jack has an excuse to be a little upset, he made the product that got a little screwed, but is it actually supporting him? Does not buying Sakura Spirit get Loren Uncensored onto Steam, will it boost his sales? Unfortunately the world isn't that simple. I love the games that Jack and his crew work so hard to make, but where in that is it conflicting with being okay with the existence of another game? Beyond that, Comparison of the gameplay of the two games is rather irreverent. Loren is part RPG, Sakura Spirit is not. Loren has traditional gameplay, Sakura Spirit does not. This essentially makes it akin to putting Dragon Age Inquisition and Tales from the Borderlands, or League of Legends and Smite on a side by side comparison, they share similarities conceptually, but they aren't similar enough in execution, it doesn't work. Jack you even noted that you put so much effort into creating a good RPG experience, which you did, but then how did you miss the fact that Sakura Spirit isn't an RPG? You also talked about it "being rewarded so much compared to a product like Loren", which is comparing sales cross genera. Do we compare the sales of a book and the sales of an unrelated movie, and if you do, why? It doesn't make sense. Jack, you also said "with much less effort", while I know you work really hard on the coding, how do you know it was less effort? Are you just assuming that because it lacked an RPG element that there was less work. Couldn't it have had as much work? Did the artists inherently try less hard because their drawings were more explicit? Did the writer not work as hard because they weren't writing an RPG? Do they not have work ethics because they have more sexual content? How would you know? If the game is so popular, then don't they have fan support too? Is it really fair to say that it was much less effort when you weren't part of the project? There is nothing wrong with being proud of your work, and your work is deserving of pride, but might that pride be obscuring your judgement a little? There's nothing to be ashamed of if it is. That's human nature.
The only place where comparison makes sense, is that Loren got Censored, and Sakura Spirit did not. But even then it's not a direct comparison. Loren did contain actual nudity, whereas they used technicalities and workarounds in Sakura Spirit. I brought this up only to illustrate and give example of how the system works, and the slight nuances of it. I had no intention of starting a hate fest on a game that objectively speaking doesn't deserve it. The ratings system is broken, it doesn't make sense and it doesn't really work, but that isn't the fault of the games that fall under it, it's the fault of the system. Get mad at Steam if you want, it's their system, but why does it make sense to get mad at a game that is just an embodiment of the problem?

I'm sorry if this came off as a little harsh, I just felt it had to be said.

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fabulaparva
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Re: Hatred and erotic stuff

Post by fabulaparva » Wed Dec 24, 2014 12:55 am

iWeasle, it looks like you completely misunderstood my post.

I won't play the game because after reading the review I linked to, I have enough information to not have to touch it. It's not for me because of the --in my opinion-- questionable content, and the reviewer, after extensively presenting what is in the game, came to the same conclusion...wasn't for him either and didn't score it very high (ok, that's a euphemism). I am not hating the game because of some flimsy reason that it got through and Loren did not. Why on earth are you assuming that? I've ranked that thing to 0 points on my personal interest scale when I read the description, saw some pics,etc some point early Fall. I had no clue it was going on Steam at the time nor did I know that Loren was going to be vetoed.

Based on what I have read about the content, I think that the game is a perfect example where you can get in stuff that is no more "safe" than what does get censored because the systems to evaluate context are faulty. But my rant about rating systems, and their flaws in general, go far beyond any specific games.

EDITed for clarity, I hope.

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iWeasle
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Re: Hatred and erotic stuff

Post by iWeasle » Wed Dec 24, 2014 4:45 am

fabulaparva wrote:I read the very extensive review for Sakura Spirit at VNs NOW. I came to the conclusion that I won't touch that <censored> thing. It is beyond me why Loren's few scenes at the end (and missing formal rating) would be an issue but other game that consists (apparently) nothing but smut is okay just because the dreaded female nipple doesn't show up >.< This is a major problem with all ratings that are based solely on number of nipples and lists of cursewords without taking the context into consideration. Yes, there is erotic stuff in Loren. Not showing full frontals of female/male genitalia does not mean that sex is only implied and not shown. Yes, there's making love in Loren. :shock: But the thing is, in Loren this is in perspective and it's not hurtful, it's not demeaning, it's not exploitative and it's not something that's there for cheap thrills only. There are games that show way less than Loren do, but have way more hurtful content as far as things that the ratings should be looking out for go. But the thing is: nipples are easy to count. Number of times "blacklisted words" are said is easy to count. Putting content into context is not easy.

Okay. Better shut up now before I really start to rant, lol.
fabulaparva wrote:iWeasle, it looks like you completely misunderstood my post.

I won't play the game because after reading the review I linked to, I have enough information to not have to touch it. It's not for me because of the --in my opinion-- questionable content, and the reviewer, after extensively presenting what is in the game, came to the same conclusion...wasn't for him either and didn't score it very high (ok, that's a euphemism). I am not hating the game because of some flimsy reason that it got through and Loren did not. Why on earth are you assuming that? I've ranked that thing to 0 points on my personal interest scale when I read the description, saw some pics,etc some point early Fall. I had no clue it was going on Steam at the time nor did I know that Loren was going to be vetoed.

Based on what I have read about the content, I think that the game is a perfect example where you can get in stuff that is no more "safe" than what does get censored because the systems to evaluate context are faulty. But my rant about rating systems, and their flaws in general, go far beyond any specific games.

EDITed for clarity, I hope.
Alright, if I misunderstood I apologize, but its not really a "why on earth are you assuming that" case. You went directly from saying that you "won't touch that <censored> thing" to complaining about the fact that it's not censored while Loren is with no break. Your declaration about not playing the game led directly into your complaint about the system, which led directly into your rant about the system. With no separation, and in that order, your argument is built in a manner that makes it appear to be stating that: You will not play this game, because of the ratings system, and this is whats wrong with said system. You actually roughly followed an academic approach to a structured persuasive essay. Clearly, this wasn't your intention, but it made my interpretation appear to be the correct one to me.
Secondly, How was I supposed to know that you had read the Sakura Spirit review long ago? All you said was "I read the very extensive review for Sakura Spirit at VNs NOW". Without any implication of timeline, it's a safe assumption that you are referring to research you did for this argument, which also helps my interpretation.
Thirdly, I'm not going to interpret whether you're misinformed, misspoke, or not telling the truth, but Sakura Spirit was on Steam before Fall, so was Loren (which didn't get vetoed, it just didn't get its uncensored version on steam).
Apologies if this is also a misinterpretation, they're fairly easy in text, but the tone I'm getting from your new comments, are you angry at me for misunderstanding you? Comments like "Why on earth are you assuming that" present a very hostile attitude. I tried to make it very clear in my post that I wasn't upset with you or trying to be insulting, I was calmly explaining flaws in what I interpreted to be your meaning. So if you are, why are you mad at me?

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jack1974
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Re: Hatred and erotic stuff

Post by jack1974 » Wed Dec 24, 2014 7:38 am

iWeasle wrote:All you said was "I read the very extensive review for Sakura Spirit at VNs NOW". Without any implication of timeline, it's a safe assumption that you are referring to research you did for this argument, which also helps my interpretation.
Just wanted to say that is the SITE ITSELF, that is called "VNs NOW" :lol: so I think you misunderstood because of this.

For the record I have nothing against that game or others similar that will show up in future. I only said that, as developer, is a bit discouraging whenever you see someone/something being immensely rewarded compared to its actual efforts, but that probably happens in every job in life after all!

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fabulaparva
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Re: Hatred and erotic stuff

Post by fabulaparva » Wed Dec 24, 2014 9:55 am

Yeah, that's the name of the site. Probably very confusing in a brief post. :P I guess I shouldn't put up links as reference, without explaining more on what there is as most won't probably click them, anyway.

iWeasle, it's way too easy for me to get myself misinterpreted over the internet. What you are reading as hostility in my previous post is bafflement. Some background on myself and VNs: I do take some interest in available English Visual Novels, and I occasionally browse a number of sites that review them just to see what there is available and if I should play one. So, at some point during last Fall (probably early September or late August), I see Sakura Spirit reviewed in a couple of places. Before reading them, I'm thinking, Yay, a new EVN! should I check this out? Find a demo to play? Download the whole thing? Then I read about it and mostly the review on the VNs NOW-site (but not only that review) will make it very clear to me that I should not. This is because based on that review, the content and quality are both clearly questionable. So, after that I thought I had actually made a well-informed decision of not touching something that is of sub par quality and demeaning for its own female characters.

Regarding this thread: Trying to be brief while posting then led my post and rationale being unclear and for you to type out that my decision about not wanting to play the game was a bit immature. So, this lead me to being completely baffled because I couldn't understand why the post with a link to a very outspoken review on how bad the game actually is, will cause my decision making process to play or not to play the game to be called immature. :?: So there I was, typing 'why on earth' and 'edited for clarity, I hope', not because I was angry, but because I really did not understand. I'm truly sorry that you took it as anger.

However, as I'm writing this particular post, I am somewhat upset. Because:
Thirdly, I'm not going to interpret whether you're misinformed, misspoke, or not telling the truth, but Sakura Spirit was on Steam before Fall, so was Loren (which didn't get vetoed, it just didn't get its uncensored version on steam).
Ouch. Not going to interpret whether I'm not telling the truth? Ouch. Now that hurt.
I'll try to explain that part, whether you believe me at this point any more or not. As for the game being available on Steam before Fall, I didn't know it was there, because I'm out of the loop and didn't use Steam at all until 18th of November when I downloaded the Steam application to Beta-test SotW there and a few days after joining I saw an ad for Sakura Spirit directly on Steam. This morning, I revisited the review I linked to in the previous post, reading it carefully through, and it does actually mention (written in early August) that SS is on Steam. Since I wasn't using Steam at the time I read the review the first time, I completely forgot that and when I did see the game on Steam late this Fall, my thoughts were pretty much oh gawd, that's here as well?
What I was trying to convey with that poorly formed part of my post, was again that the Steam availability and the whole issue of this game being there and Loren uncensored not had nothing to do with my decision to not play SS. The decision was done only based on what I perceive as low quality in a game. And conveying that is what I already failed in the first post. Which then led to me failing in the second post when I tried to say something incomprehensible about the timeline. And here we are, you being upset because you thought I was hostile to you and me being upset for the above quote and most of all for my unclear posts having led to where they did.


So in conclusion. I linked to the review as reference material on why I think the game is bad and has content that the rating systems clearly do not trigger at although they should... but in contrast they zoom in on and scrutinize to death stuff that's really not harmful past a certain age group of players. The link was badly introduced within my post and poorly tied to the rest of my post, my apologies for that, because what followed due to my blunder has wheeled the thread somewhat out of topic, into post-dissecting, 'what-I-really-meant'-posting on my part, and somewhat of a mess. :? :oops:


Footnote:
fabulaparva wrote:Okay. Better shut up now before I really start to rant, lol.
:lol: Should've stopped before I even posted what came before that. But yeah, hindsight and all. :lol:

Troyen
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Re: Hatred and erotic stuff

Post by Troyen » Wed Dec 24, 2014 12:27 pm

The real question is: can you rant without using your Hunter?

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fabulaparva
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Re: Hatred and erotic stuff

Post by fabulaparva » Wed Dec 24, 2014 1:22 pm

Troyen wrote:The real question is: can you rant without using your Hunter?
Nah. I tried. The Spirit Bear keeled over out of excessive boredom and died. Consequences were dire.

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jack1974
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Re: Hatred and erotic stuff

Post by jack1974 » Wed Dec 24, 2014 4:26 pm

Tip: If you rant while hiding in shadow, you do double damage! :lol:

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iWeasle
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Re: Hatred and erotic stuff

Post by iWeasle » Sat Dec 27, 2014 8:11 pm

<waves white flag> I don't want to argue anymore, clearly there were misunderstandings all around, truce :) ?

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fabulaparva
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Re: Hatred and erotic stuff

Post by fabulaparva » Sun Dec 28, 2014 10:58 am

:) I'm all for a truce! Let's have a Happy New Year :D

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