Of Shapeshifters and Necromancers

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yayswords
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Re: Of Shapeshifters and Necromancers

Post by yayswords »

I thought of the Loren personal quests and it didn't seem a great leap of logic to assume you were talking about those when you said duo quests. From there it felt weird if we tried to motivate lore-wise that every party member who isn't a tank would have access to one way or another of acquiring one for those. And because Jack can't stick to his release dates I have to give pre-emptive, speculative feedback instead of testing anything :P

That being said, I do want party members to shine at their own quests. I am sure you could get a little creative in designing the encounters.
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jack1974
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Re: Of Shapeshifters and Necromancers

Post by jack1974 »

The personal quests when you go alone are tricky to design - especially if you are playing as Mage. For personal quests of specific character I can do it, I mean I know that Chambara/Apolimesho/Myrth personal quests the player is going to be using a mage, but what about the PC ? If he/she is a mage too, things could get complicated :)
But rather than adding a shapeshifting or summoning skill JUST FOR ONE QUEST, I think is better to use other systems! Like have other NPC join you (like Breza in the save the Citadel scene of Loren).
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Anima_
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Re: Of Shapeshifters and Necromancers

Post by Anima_ »

You're both missing the obvious solution. Just make the summoning available to Saren/Elenor. No need to give it to every character.
Sure it's a somewhat situational skill, but that makes it pretty great in it's own right.
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jack1974
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Re: Of Shapeshifters and Necromancers

Post by jack1974 »

Yes that could be an obvious solution indeed :)
renke_
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Re: Of Shapeshifters and Necromancers

Post by renke_ »

I'm not convinced - I have problems to imagine a plausible background story why only some random thief/warrior can summon creatures; especially as summoning is a high and rare art (magical rocket surgery :D)
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Anima_
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Re: Of Shapeshifters and Necromancers

Post by Anima_ »

renke_ wrote:I'm not convinced - I have problems to imagine a plausible background story why only some random thief/warrior can summon creatures; especially as summoning is a high and rare art (magical rocket surgery :D)
Did you see the scene where Elenor interrupted Chambaras spell? It's not like she's without unprecedented talent. Besides, the summoning spell would of course only be available for a Healer/Mage PC. There is no need for it if Elenor is more martialy inclined.
Of course we could give Chamby her skeleton minion and Myrth her nature champion, Draco could get an fiery elemental and the new character other appropriate summons. They would just be of limited utility.
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yayswords
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Re: Of Shapeshifters and Necromancers

Post by yayswords »

Anima_ wrote:Did you see the scene where Elenor interrupted Chambaras spell? It's not like she's without unprecedented talent.
This might drift into my story grievances but I am not a fan of heroes being heroes because they have some unique gift. In my eyes, the choices make the hero. I was overdosed with bullshit just picking the starting stats for Elenor/Saren: I strangled the dragon with my right hand while shutting a volcano with the left. +2 strength. Not just: I like to lift a little now and then. +2 strength. In other words, they don't need more random gifts and we don't need to exploit the ones they've been attributed with already.
Besides, the summoning spell would of course only be available for a Healer/Mage PC. There is no need for it if Elenor is more martialy inclined.
Wouldn't you consider it poor game design if the healer/damage dealer requires the tank but not vice versa?

And now. As for the problem we're trying to solve with summons, since they've pretty much been ruled out for anything outside personal quests anyway. Let me give some examples of my solution of "make the NPC shine".

Dora/Rei: There's one very tanky frontline mob that does pathetic damage, but he protects three casters (with the ability to heal him). Rain arrows upon them.
Ramas: The enemies rely on causing ailments such as paralysis, but that can't stop him. Saren/Elenor spend most the quest questioning the meaning of their presence.
Apolimesho: Two enemies with massive heals, but they can only use them on each other, not themselves. Or they have some big combo but each half of it is quite weak (the whole is greater than the sum of its parts etc). Keep one paralyzed.

Note that I built both Ramas and Apolimesho around the SINGLE skill point that is already picked when you recruit them. If you did something for Draco that involves exploiting elemental vulnerabilities that's nice and all... assuming you actually took all four spells on him. However we're talking future titles and perhaps you might consider that not EVERY skill except the first is a choice, but rather at some levels you get a bonus skill that's generally useful to the character. And I also assume you could have new mechanics for the spells. Let's say at level 10 Loren gets a skill that guarantees she parries the next attack against her (they do like to hit her), and for her personal quest you could have some predictable big attack for which you should be ready with that skill.

Not that I hate the idea of summons though. I just don't think they are the top card of the deck for solutions to this problem.
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jack1974
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Re: Of Shapeshifters and Necromancers

Post by jack1974 »

Just want to say that we should probably wait to see how Loren 2 framework will be before discussing in depth, because the skills/Classes might be quite different so while some points could still stand, other could be very different :)
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Re: Of Shapeshifters and Necromancers

Post by Anima_ »

yayswords wrote: This might drift into my story grievances but I am not a fan of heroes being heroes because they have some unique gift. In my eyes, the choices make the hero. I was overdosed with bullshit just picking the starting stats for Elenor/Saren: I strangled the dragon with my right hand while shutting a volcano with the left. +2 strength. Not just: I like to lift a little now and then. +2 strength. In other words, they don't need more random gifts and we don't need to exploit the ones they've been attributed with already.
I'm sorry that you don't like the direction the character was developed.
Wouldn't you consider it poor game design if the healer/damage dealer requires the tank but not vice versa?
Yes, buts that's not the case here. The game requires a character in the vanguard to have a rearguard in the first place. So players who choose to make their character a rearguard specialist would be punished for their choice in these kind of battles. Which would be bad game design.
And now. As for the problem we're trying to solve with summons, since they've pretty much been ruled out for anything outside personal quests anyway. Let me give some examples of my solution of "make the NPC shine".
Nobody said that they were ruled out for other instances. The point was that they are very useful in situations where your party is constrained. Which character quests as a prime example.
The encounters you describe would make great tutorial battles, showcasing different facets of the characters.
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