General Romance question

Games with combat, inventory, crafting and more beside a story and dating/life sim gameplay
P_Tigras
Druid
Posts: 411
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 5:58 pm

Re: General Romance question

Post by P_Tigras »

Some people are hardwired gay or straight, while others are to a varying degree bi. It seems fairly common for bi woman to believe they're straight, or even occasionally gay, rationalizing away any attraction they feel for the other sex until they find someone that cuts through those rationalizations and they discover they can go either way. I have a cousin who is a lesbian. She had two previous girlfriends who were supposedly lesbians too that left her for men. It's a really big sore point for her. I hear this is a sore point in the lesbian community in general, as it may well be that bi women outnumber lesbian women.
User avatar
jack1974
Pack leader
Posts: 15054
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2005 4:43 pm

Re: General Romance question

Post by jack1974 »

Interesting, thanks. I had a male friend who had a girlfriend and he said he likes women, then tried with men and for a period (like 2-3 years if I remember correctly) was bisex. Now last time I heard about him (I'm not in contact much now) he went only with men. So in real life such things happens for sure, even if I agree with Madance that is a very delicate topic!
P_Tigras
Druid
Posts: 411
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 5:58 pm

Re: General Romance question

Post by P_Tigras »

jack1974 wrote:Interesting, thanks. I had a male friend who had a girlfriend and he said he likes women, then tried with men and for a period (like 2-3 years if I remember correctly) was bisex. Now last time I heard about him (I'm not in contact much now) he went only with men. So in real life such things happens for sure, even if I agree with Madance that is a very delicate topic!
Yep. Two interesting data points from some recent studies:

1) Sexual attraction is less straightforward in women than men. For anatomical reasons, men were immediately aware of their physical attraction to someone else. Their verbal responses matched their physical responses. On the other hand, the verbal responses of the women participating in these studies -often- did not match their physical responses.

2) Bisexuality appears considerably more common among women than men. It's also much less common for men who shift from straight to gay to shift back then it is for women.

There are a number of different ways that both of these bits of data can be interpreted. For (1), more women than men may be prone to denying attractions they feel are shameful or embarrassing. Some women may be less in touch with their physical reaction than men because it isn't quite so overwhelmingly clear anatomically. And finally, sexual attraction is likely more complicated in women, with the mind playing a greater role than in men. Researchers still haven't figured out how to invent a female equivalent to V*agra despite lots of effort trying.

For (2), it may simply be that there is less of a social stigma these days to being a bi woman than there is to being a bi man. Or it may be that there really is a bit more fluidity in terms of sexual preference in women than in men. One possible explanation is that for evolutionary reasons, "girl crushes" and sexual bonding among women increased their interest in looking after each other's children, increasing the odds that the children of both women would survive. Another possible explanation from the male side of things, is that as testosterone begins to wane with age, bi men who pretended to be straight, but secretly preferred men, start coming out as gay because they can no longer do it with women, yet can still do it with men, eg. the married middle-aged governor with two children coming out as gay...
Madance
Druid
Posts: 306
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 9:41 pm

Re: General Romance question

Post by Madance »

Well, Bissexuality is quite difficult to pinpoint. In fact, to some lesbians(I'm not speaking by myself, even less for everyone else, mind you, just a prejudice that I've heard others commenting), is really a problem, to the point some lesbians simply would refuse to date any bissexual girl, because eventually they would leave them for man anyway, so what's the point right?
For that reason, any bissexual girl who happens to like a lesbian like that, usually would lie about her sexuality, so not to "scare her away", and thats sucks since, if this girl actually broke up with her for a man, the image of out and proud bissexuals are damaged... By someone who wasn't even sincere.
On other note, I'm not saying that a bissexual person might not be aware of their own sexuality(as often happens, it might even be supressed due the culture being against it), in fact I believe most people(of all sexualities) aren't aware, only when they are confronted with it they might admit it to themselves. What I'm saying right now that is very very very dangerous to deal with this kind of thing. Bi characters are the ones that need more effort to appeal to males and females, without sounding condescending to either of them. Loren, fortunally, have great examples of this.

I liked Chambara. I believe she's a perfect character, and her romance is beautiful done. Amukiki was another example of a great character/romance. Mesphit and Loren were both interesting characters that captivated me, but weren't my favorites, since I expected either of them to simply kill both Saren/Elenor if they felt likelly(but I still find them incredible in their own way).
A missed oportunity(I still don't get it by the way) is Karen, who were in a relationship with a man and suddely were into women and only women. It begs the question as to why would she refuses a romance with Saren but would be okay with Elenor. So her lover died... And she forgot about him pretty quickly. While I thought her romance to be quite sweet, I could not help but think that Saren's route with her was shot down not due her character develpment, but for the simply reason that the game would lack a "pure GxG romance".

I hope I'm not saying a lot of nonsense. This things are polemic as they appears...
User avatar
jack1974
Pack leader
Posts: 15054
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2005 4:43 pm

Re: General Romance question

Post by jack1974 »

No worries, there's nothing polemic :) regarding Karen I think it was mainly because she felt guilty, because of the amazon traditions. Also because ultimately escaping with his male lover led him to die, while she survived. There are many interpretations possible, but while I wouldn't exclude that she could be with a man again in future, in Loren's game surely not, because of what just happened.
User avatar
Miakoda
Elder Druid
Posts: 880
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 8:05 pm

Re: General Romance question

Post by Miakoda »

In my mind, if given time, I do think Karen could get with Saren. Given the relatively short time frame, though, I mostly figured that while she was grieving Ryzom, Karen would be much more open to another woman approaching her to comfort her while she grieves, than she would a male. True, both are slaves, but Amazon tradition would be a bit more accepting of a female in such a case than a male.
Madance
Druid
Posts: 306
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 9:41 pm

Re: General Romance question

Post by Madance »

Exactly. But I could not help but think of Elenor as a torniquet rather than a lover. Over time, of course Saren would be given a chance to try something with Karen, however I still keep thinking her romance was too soon with Elenor, if Ryzom was so important to her. Let's imagine in Loren 2(I think it passed 5 years since the first game?), Saren tryed something with her(I doubt such option would even be avaible, since Karen would already shot down Saren's advances in the first game), she would be as receptive of him as she would Elenor, since it already passed a lot of time.
As I see it, Karen would not accept another man in her life for the reason he was the only one she would feel so much for. The same could be said for Elenor, being the only woman she would feel as such. Yes, quite sad if we think of this, but this kind of thing actually happens. I have a friend that was with a man for a long time, but the moment he died, she simply would not be "capable" to start a relationship with any of them anymore. She suffered so much that the mere though would make her uncapable of feeling loved. So she met a woman that got very close to her and now they are together. What I wanted to say is that kind of thing is possible, and considering how tragic is Karen's story, appropriated to her.
User avatar
Lonestar51
Elder Druid
Posts: 504
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:12 pm

Re: General Romance question

Post by Lonestar51 »

While I was collecting my thoughts, there are already three answers to the Karen question. Nevertheless, I will add my thoughts anyway.

A woman in Karens position might jump in a few ways: Either utter desperation (and she was just that close); or openly defiing the amazon custom; or trying to regain her life inside the amazon society. If she went with another man, she could never bring herself to view herself as Amazon, much less as queen of the Amazons. Never mind what the rest of the Amazons think or say: They would respect a formidable warrior as long as she is female, and ignore the sidesteps.

Ther are other issues which Saren could not overcome: First of all, as Miakoda wrote, the short time. During the game Saren would always remind her of Ryzom. Secondly, even though a slave, Elenor is a female fighter - i.e. someone who can be respected by Karen who tries to regain her self image as Amazon. Whereas, a male fighter is (from an Amazon point of view) usually an Enemy. But most of all, it is that Karen can open up herself to a low status (but fighting) woman where she cannot to any other person - and out of this the love grows. There may also be some irrational dislike against Saren - meaning that a different man might win her heart (much as this goes against the natural vanity of the player). And Karen strikes me very much as a person who falls for the person, not the gender.

In many ways Karens love affair was the most touching of the routes I played (I did 3 playthroughs). Chamby is much more fun, but less deep. My 2 cent, whatever they may be worth.
Madance
Druid
Posts: 306
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 9:41 pm

Re: General Romance question

Post by Madance »

Good point!
I agree that Karen's route was touching and bittersweet, and that Chamby is a fun route in comparison, but both have deep aspects on each of them. Stil, I'm one if the faithul of the Cult of Chambara, so my opinion is quite biased regarding her. *___*
But the angst aspects of any romance are well kept, and if we examine them, they all have their level of angst. Example: Chambara very explicity treats you like a object to be used as cast aside in the beggining, until she come to her senses and decide your'e far better being an apprentice/lover.
Loren is conflicted in her feelings for the character since what happened to her mother(running off with a slave), have some issues separating her love/demanding obedience for the player but at the same time, gets easily disturbed if he/her doesn't follow her expectations, until she finnaly accepts that she liked the player all along and want him/her only to herself(not to mention her violent behavior towards them, to disguise her attraction).
Draco is a character who likes to goof around but need assurance so much that might mistake Loren's disdain as friendship and a completely lack of trust in his skills as respect. Since he's a half-elf, he is regarded as a abomination by humans and elves alike, and Saren is the only one that could understand what he feels, since he's being ostracized by the amazons for being a man. But Draco feels very small compared to Saren and only when he feels less worthless she could truly accept that someone might love him.
Amukiki is similar in this sense of belonging. He was cast away by his clan, his family and is desesperatly looking to fill this void in his heart, so he tries to be the best, to beat anyone that could take his place in his new "family". However, the empire never truly accepted him for what he were and this left him bitter. The player us the only person without an identity that he actually saw as worthy of respect and this eventually brought both of them to see each other as equals rather than rivals.
Mesphit is quite the definition of bad boy, he have a demon to wreck his life, ressentment worthy of centuries laid upon all his kind and being forced to follow the lead of people he simply despised. The player is the only one there that he can count on, but also, he cannot help but be very wary of them. Elenor for being a hated enemy and Saren for being human. He can lose control at any moment and this happens a lot in the game. So romance him, is like trying to find a man soul in a beast body.
Myrth is another conflicted romance(actually, scratch that, what romance ISN'T conflicted in this game?~_^). She have a duty, since she is a elder druid, but she wanted to simply forget that so much that it started to make her reckless, not to mention, feeling attracted to a (seemly) human, which turn things even more complicated.
Rei is quite straight foward in his romance. He is attracted to Elenor and isn't really used to hear a girl saying no to his advances, thus prompting the most wonderful aspect of his romance: Friendship. He actually tries to be her friend before anything else and if Elenor makes the ultimate sacrefice, his sadness is so beautiful done that really made me feel a pang on my heart.

What I mean, all romances have their on doses of pain. Some more than others, but this kind of thing is what makes everyone so unique. I think this will also be true in Loren 2, since there will be a lot more develpment in personality and romance, not necessary making everything in the epilogue of Loren 1 true(what would be the fun if everything were that predictable?) but making even more real.

Whoosh! Took a long time to writ this but I think I've got it!
josipa24
Young scout
Posts: 65
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:41 am

Re: General Romance question

Post by josipa24 »

Okay, just saw this post, but i had to respond, even though it's days old by now.
P_Tigras wrote:
1) Sexual attraction is less straightforward in women than men. For anatomical reasons, men were immediately aware of their physical attraction to someone else. Their verbal responses matched their physical responses. On the other hand, the verbal responses of the women participating in these studies -often- did not match their physical responses.
Well i can't speak for all ladies, but the physical response to someone you find attractive is still damn obvious, at least for me. I'm gonna keep this pg13 and not be too explicit though. But I'd argue that ladies are more prone to rationalize them away, with same sex at least, where there are considered 'girl crushes' (as you've put it a little bit further down or just admiration, or desire to be like the other person, not be with her. Why? Probably a whole number of reasons.

P_Tigras wrote:2) Bisexuality appears considerably more common among women than men. It's also much less common for men who shift from straight to gay to shift back then it is for women.
Oh dear. Bi people do not 'shift'. They fall somewhere on a scale. If a guy is predominantly gay and then falls for a woman, he didn't shift to straight after shifting to gay from his original state of straight or whatever. He's just as bi as ever. And i know i latched on to one word you used, but language here is indicative of a a problem. As a bi person, I have to deal with this all the time - with people thinking that not only am i two separate things (gay and straight), but that i can just shut off the gay or straight bit of myself anytime i choose (and as a bi lady specifically - the stereotype that I'll end up shutting down the gay part permanently sooner or later).

Now, ofc, people could just have a realization later in life, and change how they identify. Or they could consider themselves fluid completely. But I don't think we can firmly label men as less prone to being bi. There are a whole number of factors at play here, from the differences in ways men and women are raised, to gender roles in society, or how the same sex relationships are perceived by others. Which leads me to my next point.

P_Tigras wrote:For (2), it may simply be that there is less of a social stigma these days to being a bi woman than there is to being a bi man.
Oh dear lord, no. Lesbian relationships are more fetishized, not more accepted. And only if the ladies are prepared to talk about it/show it and still be available to men. That's why usually in shows/movies/films you see bi women sleeping with men (hell, even lesbian characters are made to do the same) and the relationship between ladies is shown as a fling only used for titilation. And that's only if the ladies are also attractive. Take a not-conventionally attractive couple and see how far the acceptance comes then. About as far as with gay guys, if not less.
P_Tigras wrote:One possible explanation is that for evolutionary reasons, "girl crushes" and sexual bonding among women increased their interest in looking after each other's children, increasing the odds that the children of both women would survive.
I don't even know what to say to this. Sexual attraction between women because of nanny privileges? What even?
Post Reply