Some months ago, through Steam, I discovered Loren and WinterWolves. I was so pleased with my experience that I reached out on the forums and initiated my first contact with Jack. Some discussion later, he tasked me with something quite a bit different from what you find in these parts. A sci-fi game that shares equal parts of mood, madness, mystery and horror.
So there we are, some months later. Plans were drawn, stories were written, characters have been created and each day, the story gets a little more complete, complex and twisted around its own little core of insanity.
This brings me here with a question for you, dear players. We are attempting a game that breaks from the usual. No combat. No inventory. No exploration. This game aims at being solely story driven.
My storytelling experience mostly comes from my years of game mastering around the table and my players were often divided when it came to my storytelling methods. I was never a popular choice with dungeon crawlers and number crunchers. Compared to many other DMs/GMs I have known and played with, I tend to leave a lot less latitude to my players. When I write a story, I generally have a few key moments that have been "decided in advance". My goal is rarely to let you choose the road you take but instead, I aim to take you for a ride you'll not soon forget. As a general rule, my players accept this and once they do, they enjoy the experience and no not hesitate to ask for more. (How else would I still be in this business otherwise?)
So my question to you is this: In a world where video games give you a lots and lots of control at the expense of thinner, shallower stories, how do you feel when what we offer is an intense story-driven game full of twists and lore and at the cost of some liberty of choice?
The only true liberty of choice the player has amounts to the romance choice (which also decides the ending you get). Because yes, I intend to include romance in a horror game.
So see this as a roller coaster. You never really get to choose where it goes but you can take whoever you want with you and the sights will be quite many…
Thoughts?
(Note that I might again use this topic to ask further opinions regarding this project)
jack1974Nov 24, 2015
This is the project I started back in... 2011, originally named "The Hospital", which of course now has changed quite a bit from the original idea.
Just wanted to add to what writer said, that there will still be choices (visual novel style choices) and different endings / variants based on the choices you make.
aeroprismNov 24, 2015
Basically, most of the choices will not dictate how you proceed through the story directly. However, every single choice the player makes will influence the NPC's attitude toward the main character. Remember how in Loren, you needed five "hearts" to romance an NPC and how some dialogue choices added or removed these hearts? Well in this game, pretty much every dialogue choice will do that but to a lesser extent.
So to get inside the hot nurse's pants, you will need to do more than just find the 4-5 right key answers, you will constantly need to build a relationship with her but by doing that, you may make the lovely psychiatrist hate your guts. Same applies for the other romance NPCs.
This is the liberty I intend to give to the player. The main story, however, will play out like a book or in this case, a visual novel: pretty much always the same.
The only other true choice I want to add is to allow tje player to dig as deep as wanted into the lore or to ignore it altogether. But hey, who doesn't want lore!
Alex81Nov 24, 2015
Good day all.
This brings me here with a question for you, dear players. We are attempting a game that breaks from the usual. No combat. No inventory. No exploration. This game aims at being solely story driven.
I certainly love a great story, especially, whether it's -fairly- linear or not.
I've enjoyed combat heavy games like the Gears of War (for their story) ,and I absolutely love many of the games over at Choice of Games, which are pretty much text only, interactive books.
I also enjoy Visual Novels, of the kind there's no such thing as combat, as such, this project is an interesting one.
Even though I love great stories, I've always felt that, Choice Is King, and this is the one reason I -really- deeply prefer a great game (which can tell 10 different stories within the same overall "framework", world or narrative.
That the story remains pretty much the same, but your relations with other player characters change can more than make up for a fairly linear story.
Again, I love linear stories where they're done right, even if I've completed such a game / book, I might return to it later, but possibly a -lot- later as I need to forget/ get some distance to the story to truly enjoy it again.
Reading / watching something a new is often a great experience in itself as you often discover details you missed the first time around.
Storydriven games are awesome
MiakodaNov 24, 2015
So my question to you is this: In a world where video games give you a lots and lots of control at the expense of thinner, shallower stories, how do you feel when what we offer is an intense story-driven game full of twists and lore and at the cost of some liberty of choice?
The only true liberty of choice the player has amounts to the romance choice (which also decides the ending you get). Because yes, I intend to include romance in a horror game.
I have no qualms with this. Having played many Choice of Games, most of their works tend to be along these lines, and I've enjoyed them. To me, the biggest thing is the romance, and you have that covered by having each one done individually.
FrankaNov 24, 2015
Regular visual novel with a few paths is fine with me, but the closer it gets to a kinetic novel (no chocies), the less interested I become. My cloned cents.
fleetpNov 24, 2015
I don't have a problem with the idea (at least one of my VNs follow a similar pattern), as long as any promotional material makes clear what the game buyer (player) is getting.
jack1974Nov 24, 2015
Yes of course once is finished, the game description will clearly say what kind of game it is. Also since I have free demos, playing it should already give an idea of how is the game/gameplay (and also the story).
kadakithisNov 24, 2015
As another DM who combat was more of a side dish and has a similiar style, I can say definitely I don't mind a story driven narrative and in fact want it very much.That said, I don't think choice makes shallower gameplay or stories. Some of my favorite games have tons of choices, while some of the most linear stories are fairly shallow just coming up with an excuse for the action.
I mean anything I say just take it that I would definitely buy it day 1 and am absolutely hyped, but I agree that a lack of choice for awhile can make you feel like you are reading a book, not necessarily a bad thing, but can take away from the game aspect of it. If there is a lot of choice I prefer it when games give more than just a Romance meter. If our relationships are the only things changing it would be nice to have something similiar to 7 Kingdoms demo where you have rivalry, friendship, respect, and romance on 4 seperate scales. This makes non romanceable characters more important since winning someone's respect can truly be something you take into account and try to achieve.
Also, I worry about the psychiatrist and the nurse scenario. 1 or 2 rivalries are fine, but arbitrary enemies can be just as immersion breaking as being able to befriend everyone. If they hate us for simply disagreeing at times, players might grow to dislike the characters and get frustrated. It would be a shame for a character driven story to have too many diametrically opposed companions, and thus prevent us from knowing and enjoying them.
But I am ecstatic about the idea, and can't wait to see what you will do with it.
aeroprismNov 24, 2015
@Alex81 = Your post sums up a lot of my thought process! I think you will like this game!
Regular visual novel with a few paths is fine with me, but the closer it gets to a kinetic novel (no chocies), the less interested I become. My cloned cents.
I am not aiming for a kinetic novel, I definitely want to allow some liberty but since there are going to be some particular restrictions placed on the player character, the choices will all be through dialogue only.
That said, I don't think choice makes shallower gameplay or stories. Some of my favorite games have tons of choices, while some of the most linear stories are fairly shallow just coming up with an excuse for the action.
I absolutely agree. I didn't mean that more choice automatically means shallow stories. I just think that in order to accomodate a vast array of control, the story quality can be the first victim. Take Kingdoms of Amalur for example. I LOVE that game for many reasons, namely mood and environmental immersion. The player can do ANYTHING, you have choice everywhere and in everything but the story suuuuuucks! Heck, I have played if for tens of hours and I can name you all the classes, maps and spells but I barely remember what the story is about.
If our relationships are the only things changing it would be nice to have something similiar to 7 Kingdoms demo where you have rivalry, friendship, respect, and romance on 4 seperate scales. This makes non romanceable characters more important since winning someone's respect can truly be something you take into account and try to achieve.
That is actually a very cool concept. I don't know how well it applies to the game I'm writing though. It's a very particular context and it's very hard to ellaborate without spoiling.
Also, I worry about the psychiatrist and the nurse scenario. 1 or 2 rivalries are fine, but arbitrary enemies can be just as immersion breaking as being able to befriend everyone. If they hate us for simply disagreeing at times, players might grow to dislike the characters and get frustrated. It would be a shame for a character driven story to have too many diametrically opposed companions, and thus prevent us from knowing and enjoying them.
I understand your concern. I can say this: you will have the option of making more than one NPC like/love your character but in the end, only one can be kept for romance. You can finish the game without anyone openly disliking you but you will not be able to get to the end of the game with everyone in your pocket. The NPCs are just too different. The context doesn't call for your usual cast of romance NPCs such as "the nerdy girl" or "the sports jock". Since this is an attempt at making an adult and grittier game, the NPCs will have certain traits that you usually do not find in a romance sim. It's very hard to be specific without spoiling anything.
But I am ecstatic about the idea, and can't wait to see what you will do with it.
You and me both!!
I do not know if you guys are familiar with the concept of railroad games vs sandbox games but It all sums up to the idea that the game will be the antithesis of a game like Skyrim or Fallout. There will be zero exploration and you can literally NOT lose the game or get stuck. The only real, tangible choices will be how the NPCs relate to you, which will dictate which ending you get (5 different endings planned) and if you push hard enough with the NPCs who like you, you get a romance.
This however does NOT mean that the game will be confined to what your character says or does. There will be a LOT of peripheral contents such as lore and background development. Jack did not simply ask me to write a game, he asked me to create a world. If this game meets success, there will be more games in that world and they will not necessarily be visual novels. So try to picture this game as a quick journey of a few days in a world where a lot can happen.
Am I hyping myself? Possibly. I'd be a terrible writer if I wasn't excited about what I write!
TroyenNov 24, 2015
the NPCs will have certain traits that you usually do not find in a romance sim.
Like intelligence and common sense?
OhHaiMeNov 24, 2015
I'll start by saying that I have no problem with lack of choice in a story.I enjoy books and kinetic novels just as much as other mediums.I know that's not what you are making, but what I mean to say is that as long as the story is actually good that's all that matters me.In fact I'd say the only time choice really adds to a story is when it either drastically changes it or (what I think is the best use of choice in a VN style game) when it revels different information about the story. (the best example of this to me is Zero Escape: Virtue's Last Reward)
I do have concerns that you talk like you made some new thing,but it sounds like you are just describing a regular visual novel.Now I know I haven't actually seen your work but that's a big red flag for me.Because in my experience whenever someone feels like they are being clever they are not. It may be a good idea but often times it's not as impressive to other people as it is to you. So when you emphasize that in your design it ends up falling flat.
For instance a game with No combat, No inventory and No exploration. That aims at being solely story driven. Is not "a game that breaks from the usual" to me. I have had experiences like that many times before,for me it's completely ordinary.
I feel like I'm getting a bit harsh here,especially without knowing anything about the project, but the way you talk makes it sound like you could use a good editor or producer to go over your work with a red pen. And again,I admit I have no right or reason to say this other then just a gut feeling and I could be wrong.But I'm usually right about this kind of thing so I feel I must offer my opinion in case I'm not just crazy and it could help the game to be better.
jack1974Nov 25, 2015
Like intelligence and common sense?
Tsk my dating sim characters are all smart and...hmm Nicole going in that abandoned building alone... OK you're right!
For instance a game with No combat, No inventory and No exploration. That aims at being solely story driven. Is not "a game that breaks from the usual" to me. I have had experiences like that many times before,for me it's completely ordinary.
I think aero was talking about games in general. For people used to visual novels is not uncommon indeed, for general gaming a bit more Also I think he was comparing it to games like Loren, in which (excluding the RPG part of course) you can also move freely on the map or do camp talk in any order.
aeroprismNov 25, 2015
I think aero was talking about games in general. For people used to visual novels is not uncommon indeed, for general gaming a bit more Also I think he was comparing it to games like Loren, in which (excluding the RPG part of course) you can also move freely on the map or do camp talk in any order.
Pretty much. Even those liberties will be denied in the game I am writing.
But OhHaiMe is perfectly correct as well. I do sound like a guy who thinks he just (re)invented the wheel but there is a very simple explanation for that: Except for Loren, I have zero experience with VNs. None whatsoever. So as I am making this game, my brain keeps screaming "You're making a game with just a linear story and limited choice?? People will eat you alive!!" While what you're saying is: "Oh look, a VN project, cool!" This is the perfect answer to my original post: it tells me that what I am doing right now is not only common among this crowd, it is expected! Cool! Now I can work with my mind at ease, knowing that the recipe I am following is one that has already been tried and tested!
And you were not being harsh. If I wanted to pretend that everything was happy and well, I would not have asked for honest opinions on a public forum
OhHaiMeNov 25, 2015
Except for Loren, I have zero experience with VNs. None whatsoever.
I assumed as much,but didn't want to be too presumptuous and comment on it. But I actually think this is a good thing,Inexperience is quite an exiting thing.You've not yet been exposed to the usual way of doing things so, while you may fall prey to the tropes and mistakes others have made before you.At the same time you're not pressured to do things the "normal" way, so I look forward to seeing what new things your unique perspective and background can bring to the genre. Like I said a VN is just a another medium for storytelling, as long as you have experience with that then you can do well. Especially if you have someone who is experienced and knows the community like Jack to help push you in the right direction.
I'm hoping,no, I'm confident that Jack can rein in your abundant enthusiasm to bring us a good game.
aeroprismNov 25, 2015
That's the plan! I fully intend to have my material checked and rechecked by knowledgeable people to avoid errors, loopholes and to make sure that any dumb ideas I could have are pointed out BEFORE the game goes public.
It is my first experience so, all the help I can get, I will gladly take!
canyonazNov 25, 2015
"No combat." - Hooray!
"No inventory." - Good with that!
"No exploration." - I like exploration, but I don't need it in games.
"This game aims at being solely story driven." - Hooray, again!
Things that make a game memorable for me tend to be story, characters, and art. As others have said, story-focused genres like visual novels, interactive fiction, and the like are among my favorite genres.
That is cool and kind of different that you'll be including romance in a horror game. I hope the horror comes from the situation and not from who/what you are romancing.
aeroprismNov 25, 2015
haahhaha that's a very valid question.
Fact 1 = this will NOT be a zombie game. There are enough zombie games as it is.
Fact 2 = this is sci-fi so, no vampires, monsters or strange critters.
Actually, "horror" was a pretty poor choice of word on my part. It will be the kind of "scary" that's hardest to write: no gore, no tripes, no cheap scares.
Just fear. Fear of the unknown, fear of the strange, fear of the dark.
Jack, stop me if I'm taking too much speech liberty here.
OhHaiMeNov 25, 2015
Actually, "horror" was a pretty poor choice of word on my part. It will be the kind of "scary" that's hardest to write: no gore, no tripes, no cheap scares.
Just fear. Fear of the unknown, fear of the strange, fear of the dark.
I believe the word you're looking for is...
Suspense! *dunn,dun,dunnnnnn...*
jack1974Nov 26, 2015
I think when I fist described the game was "psychological horror"
And yes romance seems weird in such a setting, but I couldn't do a game without romance!
