jack1974
May 17, 2015
So first of all let me get this straight:
I plan to keep doing my usual games, both dating sims, the RPG/VN, and maybe even other kind of story-based games.
That said, I often am thinking about
some ideas of games without a plot, but only gameplay. Some examples are town building/RPG mix, or simulation/management and RPG mix and so on.
Of course, I would always give precedence to the story based games, since whenever I tried gameplay only games the results weren't particularly encouraging
. But sometimes I'm stuck waiting for the various collaborators to finish art/writing and so on, and in those moments I think that I could work on something else instead, in which I'm independent (well apart for art of course, but the biggest part would be coding the game itself).
Anyway, not saying will do any of those games in the immediate future (I'm quite busy with a lot of things to do now!), but I'm just testing waters to see what people think of this idea. In practice just getting an idea of how many of my current followers would play something different from me or not
Miakoda
May 17, 2015
I don't mind playing a game without romances. I mean, I am a fan of SimCity, Civilization, etc. :D Of course, it would still have to have some story behind that.
That said, I would also buy a game if it came from a developer (like you) with romances I liked. I mean, I had some thoughts on a pirate simulation (thanks to playing Heileen) that would incorporate elements of town building, adventuring (such as finding lost/buried treasures), looting, etc...
Jaeger
May 17, 2015
I play fighting games regularly, they usually don't have much of a story, and the ones that try are really terrible in that respect. However, I play them more often than any other genre.
Story can enhance the experience, but it doesn't have to be the focal point of the game. Even though people associate RPG as story-heavy genre, it's not always the case if has other strong elements like combat and exploration to make up for it. Etrian Odyssey gives the player some context of the world, but the meat of the game is exploring the dungeons.
Franka
May 17, 2015
I play games with no stories all the time, but....
I'm sad to say that I don't think the gameplay alone has been strong enough, in any of your games that I've played, to stand on its own. I'd say you should probably play to your strengths, which seem to be getting people to write good stories and character dialogue for you.
Unless you want to start making dirt cheap shovelware and sell it to impulse buyers.
jack1974
May 17, 2015
Haha no I don't want to make shovelware
It's probably true that gameplay isn't strong enough, there is a lot of competition nowadays, even in roguelike or town building. Anyway as I said I just was curious. Personally I like stories myself (I wanted to be a comic author when I was a kid) so I'm good to keep doing what I do now.
Besides recently I've found some really good and reliable writers
Franka
May 17, 2015
If you had a fantastic idea for unique gameplay or something, that would be something else. I mean, for example, Crypt of the Necrodancer only has a peripheral story, but a rogue-like rhythm game? That's just crazy enough that it works (plus, good production values and all that). You need a fresh idea like that, or a really, really strong niche setting, not just a desire to create something within a given genre.
Rebly82
May 17, 2015
My real answer would be somewhere in between!
Any game that I like will catch my eye, regardless if there is a story or not. But they may/may not be very high on my to-buy list. Because, since gameplay is the crux after all, many developers are building these games. I have a whole backlog full of them, and wishlists equally long too. But what very few are doing, are your blend of story, different types of romances, choose-able/customizable main character and a good art & total quality overall. So, these games hold a lot more value for me, as I can't really find the same caliber anywhere else.
Overall, it depends. Not a hard yes or no.
I'm sad to say that I don't think the gameplay alone has been strong enough, in any of your games that I've played, to stand on its own.
Just curious, are you basing this on the gameplay within the VNs or have you actually played any of Jack's older gameplay only games?
jack1974
May 18, 2015
If you had a fantastic idea for unique gameplay or something, that would be something else. I mean, for example, Crypt of the Necrodancer only has a peripheral story, but a rogue-like rhythm game? That's just crazy enough that it works (plus, good production values and all that). You need a fresh idea like that, or a really, really strong niche setting, not just a desire to create something within a given genre.
Well I know Ryan's personally (we started being indie at same time) and he's a genius. If I made a gameplay-only game even 1/10 successful as his latest one, I would probably not need to work anymore
So of course I wasn't even thinking to have such crazy success like him! I could live with much less
The fact is also implementing/coding it. I know it's easy to say, but I have a lot of ideas for games, but one thing is the idea, another thing is implementing it. I can code (not really well) but what really I don't like is making looong games. Crypt of Necrodancer took 3 years, and talking with him he explained the whole process (lot of prototypes, going to conventions, gather customer feedback, etc) and honestly it's not something I could do (or like).
My gameplay-only games would be something maybe less original but could still be fun (I think of course) and also smaller scope. Stuff you can play for few hours a day, like roguelikes or sims with permanent progress and no real gameover. Think SOTW gameplay+team management (gladiator game) or stuff like that. I have no clue of course if I could do decent games like those since is a while since I did them
Just curious, are you basing this on the gameplay within the VNs or have you actually played any of Jack's older gameplay only games?
Those games are "ancient" so is not fair to compare to my latest ones
though the first two, the boxing/goalkeeper sim, were quite original (they still are, no other games like that are available on PC).
Franka
May 18, 2015
My gameplay-only games would be something maybe less original but could still be fun (I think of course) and also smaller scope.
Of course you shouldn't expect a breakaway hit, but I'm not sure what would be the point in aiming for something average. You'd still need to do crazy amount of work in programming, bug fixing and balancing, especially if creating something that should be playable for a long time, and we know how burned out you got the last time.
On the other hand, if you feel you have the extra time, and won't burn out, I guess the point is it'll pay some bills, and you should just do it instead of beating around the bush.
Troyen
May 18, 2015
Loren the Amazon Princess, fresh off the defeat of Fost, settles back to manage the prospering Amazon holdings. Meanwhile, she has to spend time ensuring the human Empire and the tree-hugging Elves overcome their decades of animosity and hatred, lest another war break out. If that isn't enough, rumors abound of a land across the ocean, populated by hot snow elves who would make for some pretty slaves.
Behold: Loren the Amazon Queen, the empire simulator.
jack1974
May 18, 2015
Of course you shouldn't expect a breakaway hit, but I'm not sure what would be the point in aiming for something average. You'd still need to do crazy amount of work in programming, bug fixing and balancing, especially if creating something that should be playable for a long time, and we know how burned out you got the last time.
Well the aim wouldn't be "average", but small. Something I could sell for under $10 for example
as for the amount of programming, yes it could be, though if I reuse SOTW battle system a good amount of work is done. What really burned me out of SOTW was the story length+battles: each encounter had specific rules/enemies/situation.
On the other hand, if you feel you have the extra time, and won't burn out, I guess the point is it'll pay some bills, and you should just do it instead of beating around the bush.
Yeah that is the point, though of course I am not sure myself if would be worth it or not
Now I feel less burned out at least!
Behold: Loren the Amazon Queen, the empire simulator.
You might not believe it, but originally Heileen was to be a fairy Queen town-building sim
then I found about the visual novel stuff and...
Franka
May 18, 2015
Well the aim wouldn't be "average", but small.
To go into more detail, when I sit down and sketch out games I'll never make and stories I'll never finish writing (see, this is why you're a professional
), I always want to feel like what I'm doing is going to be revolutionary. Even when I know that the result will be different, I want to have that feeling that this will change the market and people will sing my praises. If I don't have that (when starting out, before reality sets in), I might as well sit in a cubicle and program software for BigSoulless Inc. or jump on the shovelware wagon.
And then we have people like
http://jayenkai.socoder.net/, who is so overflowing with ideas that he makes a new game every week (or tries to).
jack1974
May 18, 2015
Haha well I think there's a middle way between making quick shovelware and epic revolutionary games
Take Banished. It's revolutionary ? no, is a town building sim in practice. Yet it was a huge success (I happen to know even that indie even if not as well as Ryan). Of course that game is 3D, so nothing I can do myself, was just to make an example
Troyen
May 18, 2015
It doesn't even have to be revolutionary as long as it's good. There's a number of town simulation games or fantasy kingdom simulation games, for example, but most of them feel...incomplete somehow. Not quite as entertaining as they should be.
Rebly82
May 18, 2015
Haha well I think there's a middle way between making quick shovelware and epic revolutionary games
Yes! I think a middle ground is definitely workable.
To me, I will be a little hesitant in taking the use of the word "shovelware" seriously. These days, it's just a code word for "How dare someone like/make a game that I don't!" For example, there are many who claim all Visual Novels are "shovelware". Is that true? Of course not!
I can't speak for anyone else, but I have enjoyed a wide variety of games, from casual lunch break games, middle of the line games, to the triple AAA stuff.
So, I guess I have a bigger capacity of appreciation for what they are. Not games are for all audiences, certainly. Different play for different strokes and different folks. I feel it would be nice if people could ignore what they don't like, and just go for what they like, instead of an insistence towards a 1-track market!
Franka
May 18, 2015
Ah, but I want to start out with something intended to be revolutionary. The middle ground comes when you have to compromise your revolutionary game with reality. Just don't tell too many people how amazing your game is going to be before you meet reality. Especially if running a Kickstarter. Or if your name is Peter Molyneaux.
But I digress...
weaselton
May 25, 2015
I put no in because Story/romance were not split apart from each other.
It was the story of Loren that got me interested in this group's work, so I doubt I could find myself playing the games without it. And the Heileen games W/O story would pretty much well not exist.
I suppose I should say I can't see myself paying the same amount as I did for the RPG games. Loren,Heileen, Stronghold, and SOTW have all taken at least 24 hours for me to complete the way I want to. I see that as a well placed investment for entertainment. I can play games w/o plot but they tend to be about 10 hr runs for me at best.
jack1974
May 26, 2015
Yes you're right. It's what other people, including some of my writers (without any interest!) and other developer friends said. They all said that what makes my games rather unique is the story and the focus on romance (and sometimes to sexy stuff) so I would be a bit crazy to trying to change this.
And like you said, a pure-gameplay game if is good can keep you busy for hours, but if you don't like it much can be much shorter than a game with stories of 100-200k words and multiple paths/endings
Pace675
May 27, 2015
Put it like this, for me the story would have to be compelling see Life is Strange (Although it has a hint of romance, but it seems to more that it is more teen angst more than anything :p)
http://www.lifeisstrange.com/index.php . That game literally has me chomping at the bit for the next episode! (As a slight aside I'll never buy episodic content EVER again, for the simple reason I do not want to wait another 6 months to get end >.>. I'll just wait till it all released and save money since it will be in bargain bin by that time and then there is no waiting for the ending(s) XD)
jack1974
May 27, 2015
Hehe I plan to get that one too, but as you said I'm not buying anything episodic unless it's complete. That's why I'm waiting to buy any Telltale game for example. And also why I won't make any episodic game myself either
