Bolts yes, spells no. I guess bolts are a sufficient argument if SPR is going down anyway, else I'd say we'll outgrow magic bolting come the end of act 2.
Weapons can't have resistances noob
renke_Aug 14, 2014
so what? it is still a fine example for a "story-driven" item design (btw, "can't have" - I think generator created weapons are not able to have both elemental damage and regen capabilities; don't know why Jack defined it that way)
and if you exclude bolts from spells we agree, I don't remember even one dodged magic skill.
jack1974Aug 14, 2014
I've defined like that because in the times of ancient China * the elemental damage was quite powerful, so having that + regen was too much. Or simply there wasn't regen in weapons at all (initially I had very different stats for the item categories).
* also known as version 0.7 of the game or something, before fixing 50 bugs / adding 50 new features daily
renke_Aug 14, 2014
some lvl6 items - I tried to briefly outline a lore idea and tried to find "signature equipment" (no one-hand sword because Vaelies uses axes etc). are the values realistic and could this work as base line for the first steps in act 2?
weapons
quarterstaff
(imported blueish wood, only found in the far east)
dmg 10
att 3
def 3
mag 5
spd 0
crt 0
300 gold
two-hand sword
(made by a people of infidels, the holy war was interrupted as they are unfortunately excellent craftsmen)
dmg 26
att 6
def 0
mag 0
spd 2
crt 5
500 gold
one-hand axe
(a dwarfish import, because of bogus market research plentiful and cheap)
dmg 17
att 3
def 5
mag 2
spd -1
crt 2
400 gold
short bow
(crafted by monks believing in the unity of body and mind)
dmg 12
att 3
def 3
mag 3
spd -1
crt 2
250 gold
armour:
chain mail
(organized as cottage industry, the chain is crocheted by widows)
thr 4
att 2
def 20
mag 2
spd -4
confused 20
450 gold
leather boots
(fraudsters are know to sell them for the triplicate price as dragon skin)
thr 2
att 3
def 8
mag 1
spd 1
300 gold
shoes
(invented by an infamous Dingirrian thief. the guards never caught her)
thr 1
att 1
def 4
mag 3
spd 4
slowed 30
300 gold
fabulaparvaAug 15, 2014
@all: it would be easy to generate a list for our second set, but what's the correct level? 12 is probably too high - is the last shopping spree more likely for lvl 10 or 11?
Define last shopping spree. If you visit the shops on day 1, they will restock on family slave quest day. But that is a long day with not only the family quest but also the bathhouse and Rowinda dragging you off, so a lot of levels to be had. There actually isn't much left of the act after this though, they just allow you to shop one last time before the Liberty Challenges. No xp to be had from that lap around Dingirra unless you kill the respawned mercs.
Along the lines of what yayswords said about leveling up.... Depends on whether we want those items to be available to be used already in the family slaves-quest or in the steam tunnels or even only for the last day of fighting. If it's a yes for the first, then they should be level 10. If the second, it would be level 11. If we want them to be mostly for the last day's fights on the arena and against Yeldin, we might even go for 12/13, especially if we should still use them in Shacklesplit *)
I checked a couple of my games and I start that slaving-around-day just hitting level 11, so I'd assume level 10 would be rather common starting point and reaching level 11 during the day shouldn't be a problem. (Note that it is easily possible to start the family-slaves day even as a level 9 player if one doesn't finish all the quests in Act 1 and skips the ants and most mercs.... )
Anyway, I'd vote for level 11. Why? Because (assuming level 10 is where we should be) I'd rather not shop all the time & I don't want to start shopping immediately on that day. Besides, aren't we supposed to go do Yeldin's bidding instead of shopping around? We'll get the afternoon off later.
*) Related question: Do we get to shop for new gear immediately once we get to Shacklesplit?
jack1974Aug 15, 2014
Since you have only less "fixed plot points" where you can freely shop in this act compared to the first, I think perhaps all the items should be available at the beginning, then would be up to the player to buy "in advance" items that maybe are even higher than their level or not ?
yayswordsAug 15, 2014
I agree with Jack on behalf of myself and probably every future experience maximizer.
renke_Aug 17, 2014
so two sets (lvl 6 and 11), all items available directy at Zazir's for all the time in Dingirra?
yayswordsAug 17, 2014
Sounds okay to me as long as they are good items. As in, not the average level 6/11 items, though also not the best possible.
I know I suddenly stopped posting here but I have commitments and stuff (might not even play act 3+4). Kids these days have too much time on their hands though. They probably reroll shop inventories until great items appear even.
jack1974Aug 17, 2014
Yes that should be good. Then up to the players to plan their strategy.
yaysword: hope you manage to play act3+4! there's still time before they're ready
yayswordsAug 17, 2014
It's no secret my parties are the most awesome, but if we're planning on making SPR much more scarce, then this one (my last to complete act 2) is gonna be godlike with its 40 SPR. And that's the only save that isn't broken (but it was still made before the breakpatch, so it might break later). I guess I can fit in the time to play act 3, but I'm not sure my difficulty feedback will be very useful unless I go out of my way to replace those SPR items. And I don't have the time to replay the first two acts for a "fairer" party
renke_Aug 17, 2014
http://datamining-fuer-anfaenger.de/foo/items/fixed_items.ods - weapons and armour are based on masterwork quality, with some tweaks (actual item level is +1 (so lvl 7 or lvl 12), and doubled the damage bonus as the average is too low). As I still think regen gear should be not randomized I added also 2 types of HPRegen rings (+1 HPR for lvl 6, +2 HPR for lvl 11) and SPR necklaces (+2 SPR/6, +4 SPR/11).
The new items are prefixed with Z6 (Zazir's stuff for lvl 6) and Z11.
Thoughts?
jack1974Aug 17, 2014
Seems OK to me, how did you calculate the prices ?
renke_Aug 17, 2014
armour + weapon: the average premium after feeding your generator with "make me 100000 items of a given level and quality", jewelry: feels more or less fair
yayswordsAug 17, 2014
Cloth looks "okay". 4 SPR necklace (with all that other candy too) does not rhyme well with making SPR scarce... I guess if there's just one of them maybe. Oh and 800g is like half the price that item would have if it was randomly created. Actually, did you even add that one?
Weapons look awful. Finding a 12 damage quarterstaff is easy, and you could get 10 in act 1. I've seen as much as 16 (around this itemlevel too). 13 shouldn't be such an unreasonable request. Same with the 22 sword, I could find a better hammer in act 1 with some effort, and I could casino a 30+ hammer at the start of act 2 easily. If you want I can explain the merits of raw damage vs. stats.
I don't have a sixth sense for non-cloth armor quality so can't comment much on it.
P.S. Jack, what's the Memory of Lianara?
jack1974Aug 17, 2014
Lianara is involved in Jariel's personal quest
fabulaparvaAug 17, 2014
Nice job, renke_!
All in all, it's looking good. Still, nitpicker as I am, I have some suggestions.
1) What is the reasoning that only hats give +6 to magic? Everything else seem to give +3. Not saying that this needs to be definitely changed, just wondering. I thought that maybe the clothing armour in general would be higher in magic than, say chain.
2) I would remove speed bonus from chain boots, pad, gauntlets. Speed 0 would actually be pretty darn good, as most of masterwork chainmail boots I've seen - even when dubbed as quick- will have -2 in speed.
3) I can't comment on the staff dmg, but I'll agree with yayswords that the swords could have more. Finding *that* much better swords haven't been as easy for me, but maybe +3 more dmg to 2H and +2 more dmg to axes? I guess magic points could be taken away to compensate if they'll start looking too powerful.
4) That level 11 necklace is too powerful, imho, Either the price should be tripled or the like OR drop the SPR to 3 + double the price OR let SPR be and drop the defense and attack to 0.
EDIT: Sorry, meant +3dmg to 2H swords, +2dmg to axes and +1-2dmg to 1Hswords
yayswordsAug 17, 2014
Yeah the 4 SPR necklace really stands out actually. The cloth armor is like "well okay if I can get all that at once then sure", the weapons are like OMG REROLL PLZ but that necklace is like STOP THE SLOT MACHINES POSTHASTE!!!!!!!!!!!
Yes I use vivid language.
renke_Aug 17, 2014
Cloth looks "okay". 4 SPR necklace (with all that other candy too) does not rhyme well with making SPR scarce... I guess if there's just one of them maybe. Oh and 800g is like half the price that item would have if it was randomly created. Actually, did you even add that one?
you're the one claiming 40 SPR is a typical amount at the end of act 2 about the price: As I never saw (with one exception) regen stuff at all I have no idea about a fair price.
]Weapons look awful. Finding a 12 damage quarterstaff is easy, and you could get 10 in act 1.
yes, I noticed this, too - but those are already the doubled average values of the generator function (even lvl 30 rare stuff has only an avg damage bonus of 6, the typical axe would be dmg 20). Would +2 dmg for level 6 and +4 dmg for level 11 a more adequate damage? for +50 / +80 gold or so?
@ fabulaparva
ad 1: I calculated the average bonus for the 3 categories (armour, weapon, jewelry) and added this value to the base attributes of the items - the generic hat comes with built-in 3 magic, all other armour pieces with 0.
ad 2: same justification as above: base item + average bonus. lvl 7 masterwork: speed avg 3.19, min 0, max 12
ad 3: see my reply to yayswords
ad 4: I have no fucking clue about regen stuff and tried to do something about "totally impossible to get w/o mousewheeling" vs. yaysword's "party-wide 40 SPR is the base value, noob". (personally I would remove regen completely and only give a few points for unique items)
=> the attributes of the Zx items are so uniform and bland as they are based on average values, and therfor mostly a least common denominator. Manual changes are possible (even desired?), but to be honest: I'm not that much interested to sink even more time in fixed unlimited stuff
yayswordsAug 17, 2014
you're the one claiming 40 SPR is a typical amount at the end of act 2 about the price: As I never saw (with one exception) regen stuff at all I have no idea about a fair price.
I have the gold to buy 40 SPR and still drown in spare change if that's what you mean (my 40 SPR party has 13k gold if I sell all their random loot). But I thought that in the mana thread we decided to lower SPR overall, notably with your suggested change to Vigorous Sonata.
For reference, 5 SPR (or HPR, but I don't think it's worth that much) ~ 1500g is a good guideline. Not that we need to adhere to that if there's only gonna be handmade regen gear anyway though. Not sure how much gold you mortals carry around...
but those are already the doubled average values of the generator function
That probably says more about what kind of junk is generated on average than about the quality of these weapons lol. I'm fairly sure the first hammer I see in act 2 will be better than that sword.
Would +2 dmg for level 6 and +4 dmg for level 11 a more adequate damage? for +50 / +80 gold or so?
I'm quite unconcerned about the price (if you made a 16 damage staff I would gladly pay 1k for it). I'm just pushing for stats that are not at all the best I've ever seen but good enough that Jack could disable roulette without me saying goodbye to the game. For reference, as far as weapons go, those numbers are: 30 2h, 20 1h, 13 staff, 24 bow.
And lastly, though repeating myself:
ad 2: same justification as above: base item + average bonus.
The whole reason I made the roulette thread is that the average bonus is crap. The average bonus is even a resistance and not a stat. So don't flail that around
