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Orusaka Apr 18, 2011
Yeah, it happened to me about 5-7 times over 3 games. Only happened once the last game, though. There was no relation between the things. One time was the painting class in the Mall, another was writing practice at the library. I really can't remember them all, because until it happened for the 5-6 time, I really thought I was imagining things, then I started doing a tally on my notepad, and then I finally proved it was real. At first I thought it might be if you do the same event twice in one day, but it's not that. I really don't know what is causing it.



As for Eddy,


I did that, too, but figured it wouldn't be enough to max it out. I really thought it was a bug because if you can't use the gym while going for Eddy, the gym really serves no purpose.



edit:

Ooh, I thought of another thing. For, at least, the easy/normal mode, it should also be implied to the player that in addition to raising like and stat, s/he will also need to finish all scenes to win. I mean, for my second Hugh play through I came very close to finishing with 100 like, 100 creative and still losing. If only I hadn't stumbled onto him like I mentioned earlier. This scenario where you can fail with both stats raised fully, would probably confuse people to no end. I don't really know how to do it in a smart way, though. I have plenty of stupid ideas for this, but no good ones.
jack1974 Apr 18, 2011

edit:

Ooh, I thought of another thing. For, at least, the easy/normal mode, it should also be implied to the player that in addition to raising like and stat, s/he will also need to finish all scenes to win. I mean, for my second Hugh play through I came very close to finishing with 100 like, 100 creative and still losing. If only I hadn't stumbled onto him like I mentioned earlier. This scenario where you can fail with both stats raised fully, would probably confuse people to no end. I don't really know how to do it in a smart way, though. I have plenty of stupid ideas for this, but no good ones.

Hmm you're right... for Lawrence, the final scene triggers automatically, same for Eddy. For Aaron, is quite simple since you would go to the hospital. But for Hugh, you have indeed to visit some places in the right order... though I guess that probably one harder character, or a character with a different approach would be ok. I'll see what the more "casual" players says. In my past dating sims, like Summer Session for example, you had to do a precise series of events and people didn't complain too much.



In other words I'm wondering if I'm getting all those people complaining (even if are right, I don't argue about that) because more casual players are approaching this genre ? Anyway will wait to get more people feedback and in case will change Hugh ending :)
Orusaka Apr 18, 2011

edit:

Ooh, I thought of another thing. For, at least, the easy/normal mode, it should also be implied to the player that in addition to raising like and stat, s/he will also need to finish all scenes to win. I mean, for my second Hugh play through I came very close to finishing with 100 like, 100 creative and still losing. If only I hadn't stumbled onto him like I mentioned earlier. This scenario where you can fail with both stats raised fully, would probably confuse people to no end. I don't really know how to do it in a smart way, though. I have plenty of stupid ideas for this, but no good ones.

Hmm you're right... for Lawrence, the final scene triggers automatically, same for Eddy. For Aaron, is quite simple since you would go to the hospital. But for Hugh, you have indeed to visit some places in the right order... though I guess that probably one harder character, or a character with a different approach would be ok. I'll see what the more "casual" players says. In my past dating sims, like Summer Session for example, you had to do a precise series of events and people didn't complain too much.



In other words I'm wondering if I'm getting all those people complaining (even if are right, I don't argue about that) because more casual players are approaching this genre ? Anyway will wait to get more people feedback and in case will change Hugh ending :)


Yeah, you may be right on this one. I might be underestimating the average casual player. Really, it's kind of hard for me to think of a dating sim as a casual game, because in Japan, they are anything buy. They are brutally hard, and made for a tiny, almost fanatic, niche in the market. I'm probably underestimating them, though.
jack1974 Apr 18, 2011
Yes the few japanese dating sim I've tried were nuts, I had hard time to beat them myself :)



By the way I just uploaded version 1.1, if you want to try it - it's much less frustrating than before I think! I am at end of game and I am almost >40 relationship with all the characters :lol:
JackoWords Apr 18, 2011
Cool! Let me try the new version. :)
Orusaka Apr 18, 2011
I got the new version, but stuck to the hard mode. I must say, after I understood how you designed the game, it's not all that hard. I think most my issues stemmed from approaching it like the Japanese ones. I still think that type of gameplay is better, but I understand what you're trying to do now. I promised some further discussion on the genre, and I will type that up for tomorrow.



In game related talk, the way you fixed Eddy to take 1 turn to talk to now works so that it takes 1 turn if successful, and 2 turns if you fail. I mean, it kind of makes sense since the text reads you were waiting for hours, but I'm not sure if you meant to be that way or not, so just pointing that out.



edit: Okay, so actually it seems to randomly take 1 or 2 when failing.
jack1974 Apr 18, 2011
I got the new version, but stuck to the hard mode. I must say, after I understood how you designed the game, it's not all that hard. I think most my issues stemmed from approaching it like the Japanese ones. I still think that type of gameplay is better, but I understand what you're trying to do now. I promised some further discussion on the genre, and I will type that up for tomorrow.

Yes, probably is that. The way I designed it (and also some other games in the past) is that like an old adventure game you need to find out the right path and then everything becomes much easier :)



In game related talk, the way you fixed Eddy to take 1 turn to talk to now works so that it takes 1 turn if successful, and 2 turns if you fail. I mean, it kind of makes sense since the text reads you were waiting for hours, but I'm not sure if you meant to be that way or not, so just pointing that out.



edit: Okay, so actually it seems to randomly take 1 or 2 when failing.

Well there are several "success" outcomes and several (well actually 2) failure. One is that you wait for hours, so 2 turns, the other simply he is too busy so you give up (1 turn only).
Orusaka Apr 18, 2011
I see. Yeah, the game isn't really all that hard in hard mode, except for when the random turns on you. I'm doing a new Eddy play through now, and over 4 weeks I got 4/20 potential like points. So, yeah, that's not going to happen. Oh well.



But this was kind of my point all along. Even though I know what to do to win, I'm not going to, because the dice didn't roll my way. Which is why I still think randomness for stats increases make no sense.



edit:

Yup, finished with 99 discipline with almost a month to spare, and a whole 54 like. That streak just kept up. I didn't have a single week where I got more than two points. So yeah, I think we can safely say no one in their right mind should actually play the game in hard mode. Because it's not that it's hard, it's just random.
jack1974 Apr 19, 2011
Hmm is weird because I managed to get all the endings myself (playing the actual game without cheats).

I need to remember if I did something particular for Eddy, but I remember it was the hardest...ah I suppose you got the jogging shoes from the mall right? that should increase the chances to get discipline up a lot. Today I'm going to play just to see if I'm able to reach it myself in hard mode :lol:
Orusaka Apr 19, 2011
Hmm is weird because I managed to get all the endings myself (playing the actual game without cheats).

I need to remember if I did something particular for Eddy, but I remember it was the hardest...ah I suppose you got the jogging shoes from the mall right? that should increase the chances to get discipline up a lot. Today I'm going to play just to see if I'm able to reach it myself in hard mode :lol:


Well, as I wrote I had full discipline with a month left. I simply failed 4 out of 5 times on average when seeing him. The problem with random is simply that even though in theory you have, say, a 60% chance of success, you can still have 20-25% success or less, like I had. The point is simply that there was nothing I could have done to win. I lost the game because I was unlucky. I found the secret events that I could find. But because I kept failing to see him 4 out of 5 times, I just couldn't raise him high enough to unlock more.
jack1974 Apr 19, 2011
Ah maybe I would only need to lower the requirement to unlock some events. Or perhaps, even in hospital, he needs to be... less busy :) I played only through half july and indeed is harder than I thought, so even at "hard" mode I need to change something I think...!



edit: yes definitely too much!!! I'm going to make easier to get good results with him even at hard mode, otherwise is almost impossible! thanks for the feedback.
Orusaka Apr 19, 2011
A small suggestion, in Hard mode, could we have an option to turn off the stat increases after alone ending? I don't really want the game easier if I fail.



Also, I did a second Eddy play through and realized I missed an event the first time, which would have bounced his like up by 5, which would have caused the chain reaction that would make me win. So it may be alright the way it is. I don't really know, though, since I had to start with stat bonuses.



Also, also, I ran into an event with Eddy at the hospital on a Saturday, and that can't be right. I also had a scene play with Aaron and Abigail and Eddy and the Nurse on a Sunday.
jack1974 Apr 19, 2011
Ok right, will remove the bonus in hard mode, makes sense.

About the weekend events at hospital, going to check. The final/key ones for Aaron will leave them (I bet players would be pissed if it was the last weekend and they couldn't win because of that), but for earlier event should be fixed :)
Orusaka Apr 22, 2011
Easter sort of delayed this post, but I was supposed to post something about scheduling in dating sims. That will have to wait a bit longer, but I did promise you some ideas for Otome games, so I will outline this brilliant system I came across playing Tokimeki Memorial Girl's Side 1st Love (phew...).



Essentially, it boils down to Barbie-dressing as game play. Granted, for this to make sense, the game in question needs a date mechanic. Normally, only the High School games have this, but bear with me. The game has, say, 10 date spots established, and you can ask a guy out on one on any week-end day or other holiday. You can choose the spot, too, naturally, and depending on the guy you will get a stat increase or decrease depending on how much he likes the place. A shy guy will not like the beach or anywhere loud, for instance.



Now, this is pretty common so far, but here comes the good part. The game has established 4-5 stores that sell clothes of different varieties, that you can spend your money on. Each guy will have a preference to clothes, and this will trigger likes or dislikes from them on dates. They also react negatively if you dress inappropriately for the season. For example, if you wear a thick coat in summer, the guy will comment, and trigger a dislike. Some of the guys care more than others.



In addition to this, you have a computer where you can check a fashion blog online, and see what color is "in" that month, as well as what is the current "hot" clothing item, and wearing one of these, will give you an additional boost.



Granted, with no artist of your own, getting someone to draw all those clothes might be unfeasible, but I have to say, even I, being the guy I am, enjoyed this game play mechanic exceedingly.

If you happen to have DS you can check it out yourself.



edit:

Forgot some details. Naturally, in Japanese dating sims you never see yourself, so not to break the illusion that it is you, so obviously the character does not need to be drawn with the clothes; they only needed to draw sprites for the items of clothing. Also, forgot the categories they used. They had Sporty, Elegant and Sexy clothes. You can also create a forth, Dangerous, by combining one of each.
jack1974 Apr 22, 2011
Wow thanks a lot. It looks like a really good idea for a game!

Actually I had some artist come back, probably was due to school and other personal matters but now things are better, so commissioning all those clothing items shouldn't be a problem. Especially since as you said you never see YOURSELF in the game, and is a big advantage.

You know, I might really start doing a game based on this. The more I think about it and more I like the idea, and would be very fun to play/code it 8) I have many projects going on right now, but this looks like a game "small" enough that I could put in production and then code it during the breaks from the bigger games.



How you see this in a fantasy setting instead of modern times ?
Orusaka Apr 22, 2011
I can honestly say I've never played a dating sim in fantasy setting, so yeah, it was in a modern setting. More specifically, the 3 year High School setting.

However, I don't see it mattering much. It's the game play mechanic that is fun, not the setting.

This all reminds me I have to get around to actually playing Spirited Hearts soon. I bought it along with all your other dating sims back when Love and Order came out.

I haven't gotten around to playing that one yet, though.



The new installer you've uploaded wants to install to a different folder than the beta. Could we have an installer that doesn't? I'd like to keep my save games at any rate.



As for your blog post today, I had a comment also. You mentioned how you should probably stick to Python and Ren'Py because it's what you know better. I think this is a good idea, at least for these types of games. I had a look at it, and it seems very good, however much I dislike Python. What I did want to mention is another consideration you didn't mention, namely portability of code to portable devices, most important of them, the iPhone. The types of games you make would play very well on them, and actually be very suitable for portable gaming, too, in my opinion. Now, granted, you can publish Ren'Py games on the Android Market, but the Android Market isn't all that great, and piracy is very rampant. Unfortunately, Apple doesn't allow interpreted code so it will never be possible on the iPhone. If you could get your games on the iTunes, and get some traction, that might make some good money. All very uncertain, though, but it is a thing to consider. I use a C/C++ API called Allegro, that is cross platform between Windows, Mac, Linux, iPhone and some other systems as well, but they really aren't relevant. I really like it. It allows me to develop 2D games very rapidly using the language I like using (C++), and the uses DirectX for Windows, and OpenGL for the others, and I don't have to deal with that part at all.



Also, for a completely unrelated reason, I love it because it has primitives, so I can do games using geometric shapes and have a real retro feel to them.



Anyway, probably not too relevant for you, but I always try to spread the word of Allegro.

http://www.allegro.cc/

Then again, the nice Ren'Py folks wrote us a free visual novel engine, so why reinvent the wheel? Granted, I reckon it wouldn't take to long to make a similar engine with Allegro.
jack1974 Apr 22, 2011

The new installer you've uploaded wants to install to a different folder than the beta. Could we have an installer that doesn't? I'd like to keep my save games at any rate.

Ah that's not a problem since save games aren't stored in the installation folder, so don't worry about it :)



Granted, I reckon it wouldn't take to long to make a similar engine with Allegro.

Well, I am NOT a great coder, however when I tried to port Heileen for xbox using C# (which is quite cool as language) I had lots of problems especially for branching dialogues. So it might seem easy but is more complex than you think, surely possible though.

Actually I have people who can port my games to other devices, they keep asking me :D Both Vera Blanc games and Flower Shop are on iphone/ipad/android for example, but as strange as might seem they sell much more for desktops.

For the online game it's a long story... the ideal would be to have HTML5 or Flash since that's what lets people play instantly the game. If I have to use a downloadable, then I'd use Renpy for sure because with python HTTP connections are SUPER EASY (something that would be painful to do in other languages especially for cross-platform compatibility).

Anyway as I said I am really not sure what I'll do with my online Spirited Heart idea. I'll make some experiments and see what I can do, otherwise probably the only solution is to find a good partner to code it :)
Orusaka Apr 22, 2011
You make good points. Given your experience level, staying with Ren'Py is probably the better choice. I wish you luck with your online project; that's going to be some challenge, I bet.

I'm not surprised to hear the games you've had ported sold worse on iTunes than for desktops, you really have to carve out a nice on the mobile platforms to have much chance.

The only reason I brought up something like Allegro is that it would give you an iPhone version for free with no additional work. (Well, almost none. Some adjustment of art for the difference is resolution.)

I read on Ren'py's website, though, that it is possible to compile a project into an .apk (android application format), and sell on the Android Market. If this is something you can do with relative ease, you might want to look into it. While it has nowhere near the appeal of the iPhone, surely you wouldn't lose money at any rate.



Now, I have some more bugs to report in the game. I played through it again just now, and seeing as how I was going for normal endings, I decided to raise no stats and pursue two people. Basically, I maxed out both Eddy and Hugh in terms of like and events. This lead to some interesting things. First, both the Hugh and Eddy "giving-up-on-Aaron" scenes played, which probably isn't supposed to happen. Also, towards the end I got have the dinner with Osher and Abigail twice. In the end I got the Eddy ending, probably only because his ending scene triggers on the Friday, and Hugh's on the weekend. Point is, there should probably be a point-of-no-return between all the guys, and not just each guy and Aaron.



My second point, you should probably replace the names of the endings with question marks until they are unlocked. I mean, it kind of spoils things when I know Aaron's special ending is befriending Osher.
jack1974 Apr 22, 2011

Now, I have some more bugs to report in the game. I played through it again just now, and seeing as how I was going for normal endings, I decided to raise no stats and pursue two people. Basically, I maxed out both Eddy and Hugh in terms of like and events. This lead to some interesting things. First, both the Hugh and Eddy "giving-up-on-Aaron" scenes played, which probably isn't supposed to happen. Also, towards the end I got have the dinner with Osher and Abigail twice. In the end I got the Eddy ending, probably only because his ending scene triggers on the Friday, and Hugh's on the weekend. Point is, there should probably be a point-of-no-return between all the guys, and not just each guy and Aaron.

Argh that's what I wanted to avoid by making it harder in first place :lol: I feared that playing at easy level, someone who is more skilled than the average casual player, could experience some weird situations like this!

The dinner that repeats is a bug indeed, as for the others I should probably add a point of no return indeed. I am not sure how many people will try to pursue 2-3 characters at once, but need to be fixed anyway, thanks.



My second point, you should probably replace the names of the endings with question marks until they are unlocked. I mean, it kind of spoils things when I know Aaron's special ending is befriending Osher.

Hmm yes, will replace it with... "the bestseller" ? or if you have a better suggestion :mrgreen:
Orusaka Apr 22, 2011

Argh that's what I wanted to avoid by making it harder in first place :lol: I feared that playing at easy level, someone who is more skilled than the average casual player, could experience some weird situations like this!

The dinner that repeats is a bug indeed, as for the others I should probably add a point of no return indeed. I am not sure how many people will try to pursue 2-3 characters at once, but need to be fixed anyway, thanks.


I actually did it in hard mode, but yes, I would fix it. It wouldn't take more than a small scene where you have to choose, either after a specific scene plays, or at a specific like level. Much like Aaron's options disappear, so would the guy(s) you don't choose.



Hmm yes, will replace it with... "the bestseller" ? or if you have a better suggestion :mrgreen:


Well, I would just have all the endings show question marks until you unlock them.