Yes that's true. I think probably the best way is how we did with Chalassa in SOTW. (spoiler in case someone haven't played that yet)
By "default" she dies, but you can save her through a very difficult side-quest.
However in that case (Loren) those are just epilogues, not part of the main story, so to be treated a bit differently I think? I mean, obviously at one point the love interest will die, nobody lives forever those epilogues just described how it happened. Maybe is better to omit that part completely though.
FrankaFeb 06, 2017
They had the same discussion with Mass Effect 3. Everything lies in ruins and Shepard dies. Well, if the Milky Way would not have survivved on it's last breath, the whole story about the reapers attacking and eradicating all live would have not been credible.
What color ending was that?
MaruokFeb 07, 2017
Wouldn't this make the game boring and strongly reduce the motivation for replay?
I found the end of Loren/Elenor fitting. The game stated that there are two ways for an amazon / queen to die: Step down for her daugther or be killed. So Loren was granted an honorable death in the world of the amazons. It is the way of life she wanted to live.
They had the same discussion with Mass Effect 3. Everything lies in ruins and Shepard dies. Well, if the Milky Way would not have survivved on it's last breath, the whole story about the reapers attacking and eradicating all live would have not been credible.
If thepeople only accept happy endings with their character, I can understand from a business point of view to supply them with it. But it will also limit the writer's freedom for the story. Thus I think you should make the happy ending either very hard to reach or sell it as an "upgrade" for those, who cannot get along with a "not-so-snuggly"-ending.
I quote this post entirely! I obviously understand giving customers what they desire, but forcing the authors to write happy endings only kills 90% of the motivation to complete the game in my opinion (why should I play it to the end, if I already know what is going to happen?)
Personally, my favorite kind of endings are the bittersweet ones (happy, but not unrealistically happy). But I always LOVE surprises, so...
Keep going Jack!
jack1974Feb 07, 2017
Hehe the last few posts should be a clear example of what us (authors) have to face every day. And I personally agree with both of you, but what happened when SOTW was out, or Roomates was out? in both cases, forums outrage
The ONLY solution is to have different endings that vary depending on your in-game choices and make sure there's a way to get a "more or less" happy ending
Amber will be like this and I think a good example of how to do it.
DunKalarFeb 07, 2017
I can understand that Jack. But was it really a "forum outrage" or just vandalism of a minor few? How many games have you sold and how many % of them raged on the forums? I think they are fewer than you might have percieved it.
Mass Effect was just horribly written from a writer's craft point of perspective. But your stories are well written, so I would not focus on the few "screamers" too much. There are so many VN / games with happy romantic endings. If you just want too have this type of ending - play them and get your shipping. The ending should fit into the world / storyline / drama and not artificially tie everything to the same ending - like they did in mass effect. Otherwise I do not want to explore the other "choices" I can make, since I already know what will happen. And in my oppinion, good / narrow choices are what makes a story great.
Let's be realistic: Most game mechanics have already been supplied on the market. It feels like 97 % of the published games are just "old game X" with a grafics and control update. What keeps franchises running for decades are gripping stories with the freedom to chose between options. That's what I liked about your past games. A lot of different things could happen. That's why I cleared Loren 1 like 5 or 6 times (and because queen Chambarra ordered me to do so in my sleep).
But I strongly suggest to compare the number of users who complained with the number of sold games Might give you a better point of perspective.
jack1974Feb 07, 2017
Such comparisons would be pointless... since obviously I sold more copies of the game than the complaints I got
But you need to consider that not everyone who didn't like the endings writes in forums as well.
I'd say that considering my small numbers the "noise" was noticeable, both here and in Steam forums.
Anyway, since my games have multiple branching/endings, this is not going to be a problem. It's not like I'm forcing the writer to say "write ONLY good endings" or "only bad endings".
Once Amber is out, you'll see what I mean. That's a good example
FrankaFeb 07, 2017
I think the issue with Roommates and SotW was that the 1 out of 1 possible yuri romance ended badly. Just like it does in so much mainstream media. At least there were multiple options in Loren.
jack1974Feb 07, 2017
In Roommates even many other romances ended badly though haha probably was a bit too much!
AleemaFeb 07, 2017
Honestly, I'd like a happy ending, too, for a change. >.>
Namely with a lesbian relationship, and here's the reason why--speaking as a lesbian... it's actually a more rare in media from literature, movies, music, and yes even video games for lesbians to have a happy ending than a tragic one. It's a vastly more common of a phenomenon within movies and literature especially for lesbian characters' relationship (though slightly less so (not by much) in the case of male gay characters) to suddenly end tragically whether through break-up, circumstance or death. More often than not within literature it's a tragic death. But, I mean, even Loren 1 ending for Elenor and Loren ends in tragedy, by its end the world is saved and everyone can go home and become family men/women and yet abruptly Loren is challenged and dies. And my reaction as gay woman hoping at last for a happy ending is this:
And I'm like, "Again? AGAIN?!", because it's such a commonality within gay literature/movies for the two women's relationship to end in this manner that it's become a cliche.
This isn't just an observation on my part, in fact, it's observation made by many film and literature critics and researchers that have noticed this as a common trend and theme that has gone on for literal ages even into our current modern, and in many cases disturbingly so. A lot of times when I bring this up, I'll get some hipster telling me that a (paraphrasing) "tragic ending is more unique" to which I always counter, "If that's what's most common, how is it then more unique?". Or they'll tell me that things ending in tragedy is more "interesting". To which I often have to explain to them that when 95% (that's not an exact figure but not much of an exaggerated one) of the media that portrays your sexuality consistently ends terribly for those characters whom share it--how "interesting" it is wanes severely to being "not interesting at all" over the years of your life after seeing it time and again because they being the vast majority (to enormous extents) of options available to you for viewing.
And I know I got all super serious pants here with all of that, but I'm just saying the more "unique" and "interesting" route for a gay relationship, especially a lesbian one... would be for it to be a happy ending, because they are so RARE within gay literature, films, and even games (though in the case of games it's not as bad (not even close to being as bad)). Anyway...
So coming full circle, I'm just hoping for a happy ending for a change... T_T
Kharlene, you are very right about death being a tired trope in lesbian/gay fiction. Jack wrote ideas for some of the epilogues, but I am only to blame for Loren's epilogues. I didn't see it as a bad ending, I'm sorry. I pictured them very old when this happened, it wasn't like 5 years later. It was more like 30+ years. They had a full life together and Loren finally grew weak/old enough to be respectfully challenged. She knew it was going to happen - everyone did - and she made peace with Elenor, arranged for living, etc. ... but you are absolutely right that it completely falls into that ugly trap and I can see why you are upset.
I am definitely an advocate for "everyone gets a happy ending! (if you earned it)" because the first time that you reach an ending is very important to the story. Replayability be damned, your first ending will color your entire experience. Your playthrough was tarnished and that's my fault. So I want to personally say that I am sorry.
wolfmareMay 09, 2017
So is it possible Loren 2 comes out this year？
jack1974May 09, 2017
No for sure not this year. Maybe in 2-3 years, not sure.
MadanceMay 09, 2017
T____T
...But we know it will be worth the wait ^_____^
KharleneMay 20, 2017
Wouldn't this make the game boring and strongly reduce the motivation for replay?
I found the end of Loren/Elenor fitting. The game stated that there are two ways for an amazon / queen to die: Step down for her daugther or be killed. So Loren was granted an honorable death in the world of the amazons. It is the way of life she wanted to live.
They had the same discussion with Mass Effect 3. Everything lies in ruins and Shepard dies. Well, if the Milky Way would not have survivved on it's last breath, the whole story about the reapers attacking and eradicating all live would have not been credible.
If thepeople only accept happy endings with their character, I can understand from a business point of view to supply them with it. But it will also limit the writer's freedom for the story. Thus I think you should make the happy ending either very hard to reach or sell it as an "upgrade" for those, who cannot get along with a "not-so-snuggly"-ending.
You've missed the point being made earlier, it's not about people being fearful of getting a"bad end" and demanding only "happy endings", it's the fact that when it comes to gay and lesbian literature and media the "bad end" is the cliche--the commonality--the typical ending. It's the most common ending result, which is why you'll find many critics and literature buffs within the community exhausted by it. Pick up a piece of literature that entails a gay and/or lesbian relationship bet on them coming to terrible end and you' won't only break even--you'll make a great profit with those winnings. It's beyond a trope--to reiterate--it's a cliche.
That's why I stated in my previous post--the more unique ending for a gay relationship would be a happy one, because the Games of Thrones-style endings where one of them or they all die or commit suicide or viciously separated by family and/or circumstance or come to a terrible break up or (the one that oft amuses me most) one of them just decides they're not gay anymore; or even the Watchmen's they die within the first few minutes of the film is your typical representations of gay relationships outside of humorous camp (which is why I love Adrian in that movie, but if the writer's had him romantically hook up with someone, I'm willing to bet they would've killed'em rather than him being the mastermind behind it all). Now you take all of that reaching back literal centuries of media and literature--you can--I hope begin to understand the fatigue. It's why the movie Imagine Me & You I've watched a hundred times over because whether gay, bi, or straight everyone got a happy ending, this cheesy, campy lesbian romantic comedy is one of the handful of media portraying gay couples that ends happily. Think about that, when it's a romantic comedy following every common trope and cliche that every romantic comedy possesses, yet because it does so it's one of the movie's that breaks the mold for being "unique" in gay representation by virtue of simply giving them a happy ending common to the romantic comedy genre--that's a bad sign.
Take a person who went to high school and watched their friends die in a drive-by, then their first love dies from measles, their closest friend dies from a broken neck via an abrupt slip in the shower--then this person goes to college, their friend and roommate commits suicide, they meet someone who begins to rekindle love in their heart but that person gets run over by a truck, a classmate they enjoyed talking to dies in a plane crash--then graduate from college and begin a career, but then they get a call from the police because a robber murdered their parents, but then they get home steeling themselves to deliver the bad news and discover that grandma (their mother-in-law) took the wrong medication and went on a drug induced psychotic murderous rampage killing their spouse and kids... And by the end of all this repeated unending tragedy the person had witnessed and suffered through, you come along and tell them it should be harder for them to experience happiness in their life. What do you think that person's response is going to be?
Don't give me this "it's not realistic" nonsense. Entering a world with hordes of demons and all powerful Necrolords and defeating them a magical sword tosses out any form of realism or "being realistic" to begin with, hence why it's called "fantasy" and "fiction". You want realism? I work 10-12 hours a day 5 days a week, I have a wife whom I come home to after that, and we then just sit on butts and watch Netflix and/or I play video games for the rest of the night, then we go to bed. There's reality for yah'. There's genuine realism. Reality--realism--what's defined as "realistic" is mundane--it's the everyday--the commonality--the status quo. What makes fantasy and sci-fi genres such a powerful medium is the fact it oft flies in the face of--and scoffs at realism--the mundane--the common--the expected. What makes great fantasy and sci-fi stories isn't the fact they adhere to some form of realism but instead demonstrate something you otherwise may have never considered possible, whether that touches upon an aspect of reality or not in the end is immaterial. Realism--in my eyes--is the biggest limiter and handicap.
KharleneMay 20, 2017
Kharlene, you are very right about death being a tired trope in lesbian/gay fiction. Jack wrote ideas for some of the epilogues, but I am only to blame for Loren's epilogues. I didn't see it as a bad ending, I'm sorry. I pictured them very old when this happened, it wasn't like 5 years later. It was more like 30+ years. They had a full life together and Loren finally grew weak/old enough to be respectfully challenged. She knew it was going to happen - everyone did - and she made peace with Elenor, arranged for living, etc. ... but you are absolutely right that it completely falls into that ugly trap and I can see why you are upset.
I am definitely an advocate for "everyone gets a happy ending! (if you earned it)" because the first time that you reach an ending is very important to the story. Replayability be damned, your first ending will color your entire experience. Your playthrough was tarnished and that's my fault. So I want to personally say that I am sorry.
There's nothing to apologize for, you wrote what you felt went with the Elenor/Loren route. Had I known it was decades after the events you playthrough, I would have initially thought differently as that provides a completely different context to it--as it indicates they've lived full lives. I caught that it mentioned it was "many years" later when the duel occurs, but in mind, Elenor and Loren were around 18-20 or so years old when the events of the game takes place (I can't recall if the story mentioned how old they were)? So even adding 10-15 years later that still leaves them in their upper-20s to early-30s (or even add 20 years to that and it puts them in the upper-30s or just pushing 40), lived--but still fairly young by all accounts. So even with the mention of many years, I' was still thinkin' they were both still pretty young. But that's my own failing for misinterpreting the intent.
ElysianMay 27, 2017
I'm sad there's still no release on the horizon, but I'd prefer to wait longer for a higher quality product, rather than getting something that's rushed and potentially less polished. After all, it's so common for big games companies to skip out on things they'd planned to implement, either because they were aiming for a certain release date or for other practical reasons, and I always think 'I'd have forgiven the extra wait, if you'd given me extra cool stuff to make up for it'! Indie developers have more flexibility, so it makes sense to take advantage of it.
jack1974May 27, 2017
Like for all my story-based games, the delay is mainly due to writers. To write a good story, time is needed, though in this case I also had to change writer (and there's the usual risk of going into the endless loop: writer too slow->change new writer->writer too slow->change new writer and so on). If I could write the games myself, this game (and many others) would have been out already 3-4 years ago but sadly that's not an option.
However it also makes sense to wait because I might be able to use a new RPG framework which is still not finished and that could make the RPG part more interesting (for the small amount of people who also cares about the RPG gameplay!).
Alex81May 27, 2017
If I could write the games myself, this game (and many others) would have been out already 3-4 years ago but sadly that's not an option.
However it also makes sense to wait because I might be able to.
With all the other work you have to do, I understand this
Though, some of those you've written are among your better games (like the original Planet Stronghold was good (!!) (^^ And though early, and ...not up to par with your recent games, I also had many laughs playing Card Sweethearts, fun writing!). => I think your games would've sold still...though, then ...all the management, scripting, social media you do would've suffered)
jack1974May 27, 2017
Thanks though Card Sweethearts wasn't written by me
After the current batch of games are done I'm rethinking to resume writing the games and then having a good editor check all the texts and rewrite/reword the text better. My writing skills wouldn't be good enough for my current standards However maybe using this system would be faster since I would do the creative work and the editor would only have to fix my poor grammar/writing!
ElysianJun 16, 2017
It's a shame Aleema won't be the writer this time around, since she did such a good job with the first game, but my number one wish is only that the characters retain their same charming personalities. Though since I write fanfiction, I shouldn't doubt anyone else's ability to make that happen!
However it also makes sense to wait because I might be able to use a new RPG framework which is still not finished and that could make the RPG part more interesting (for the small amount of people who also cares about the RPG gameplay!).
I care about the RPG gameplay, too. I've been playing RPGs a lot longer than visual novels, so I enjoyed the aspects of building a party and fighting battles. If a player spends time on that themselves, I think it helps to create more of a connection with the characters' struggles, rather than simply taking a few seconds to read 'they slew many foes but eventually reached their goal'.
Though I do appreciate story mode, of course, for replaying to see other choices.
jack1974Jun 17, 2017
I tried everything to have Aleema write this game too, but at one point you need to go on (otherwise the game would be even more late than it already is...).
Once I finish this and PS2 though I am quite sure I'll never ever again make a sequel. It's too stressing, and no matter what, people will always compare to the first, especially if was popular, so seems really a "no-win" situation
