Winter Wolves - Tower Of Destiny (on hiatus)

Astral May 05, 2007

Anyway for the quest/enemies I plan to make some sort of counterattack / weak or strong points, because this works well but I'll be able to implement it for both caster/fighters.

Example:

Monster Ice Golem: vulnerable to fire spells, but also to a flame sword

Or also quest related:

Iron door: you can open it with "open door" spell, with a thief, or bashing it open (but you'll need a very big strong orc to do it)

And so on, so I think you should be able to make your unique (at least from a RPG point of view) party of all warriors!

Cool!

That is exactly what I wanted to know. I like how you are making this game, because from your examples its nice to know that you can beat an enemy or solve a quest in a variety of ways.

Albeit strange, I have played many kinds of RPGs with a solo warrior or a warrior-based party and have had more success and fun playing, than I did where I was forced to use a balanced party or a party where the warrior took a backseat.

Ken_Goding May 05, 2007

I'd like a fleet of fighter jets, please. We'll just nuke 'em all and it'll be over. :lol:

KnockOut May 05, 2007

Example:

Monster Ice Golem: vulnerable to fire spells, but also to a flame sword

Or also quest related:

Iron door: you can open it with "open door" spell, with a thief, or bashing it open (but you'll need a very big strong orc to do it)

And so on, so I think you should be able to make your unique (at least from a RPG point of view) party of all warriors!

What about my party of all psions? Oh wait there are no psions in the game

Maybe eventually you could release a psion and bard expansion pack so those two classes can finally get the love they deserve.

Other ideas for door opening. I don't think a thief should have an open door spell. As spells are not something I'd imagine a thief to be using roleplaying wise. Thieves should pick locks.

I don't think wizards should have an open lock spell either as opening a door is too mundane a task for a wizard to be devoting his time to such a spell. Understanding a lock and finding the right way to open it without setting off a trap is not something I can imagine a spell doing as it is very complex.

I can understand a cleric praying to his god to open the door or a druid summoning a mouse to chew on the wires that support the trap but frankly I'm just sick of wizards with open lock! :end pet peeve:

But another matter regarding thieves and the issue astral mentioned is that sometimes you only want one thief for your party for traps. There should be some compelling reason to have more than one thief for your party(same with healers, etc.)

And yes of course a warrior should be able to open a door with brute strength. But maybe some doors require two warriors or two thieves or even six thieves!

Please don't fall into the trap of party creation going like this:

Okay I need one healer so I can heal my party after battle to avoid using too many ptions the best race for a healer is ice elf

Then I need one thief so I can unlock doors and open traps the best race for that is a wood elf

Then I need one warrior to tank and take all the damage so I'll pick an orc

Now I need a druid to buff all my party members so for that the best race is dark elf

Then I need a wizard to do all the damage and the best race is again a dark elf

Then to round it out I'll use another wizard since wizards are always the best class

So every game the optimal strategy would be to pick:

Ice elf healer

Wood elf thief

Orc Warrior

Dark Elf Druid

Dark Elf Wizard

Dark Elf Wizard

Party creation should go more like this:

I need two healers to effectively use the super-heal spell. I'll make one a dwarf to make use of the ancient dwarven spell that turns all ale into healing potions and I'll make the other an orc who can transcribe a glyph that makes all healing spells also do damage at the same time.

Maybe I'll even make a third healer and have him be an ice elf so he can freeze one of my party members and in this frozen state he can't be damaged and regenerates hit points

But then I won't have room for six thieves

One of which is an orc who knows how to make the ancient orc traps of arrows

And maybe I can make the second one an orc two because that other orc grew up in a different clan of orcs so he knows another art of arrow trap making and they can work together to make a super arrow trap

But then I also need a dark elf thief who can make darkness traps

And that's not even to mention the different ways that all the thieves and races work together to unlock doors

Arrrrggghhhh! This is so confusing.

That's how party selection should go.

jack1974 May 05, 2007

Wait I wrote badly, didn't mean the thief had a picklock spell but indeed that he could use picklocks to open the door.

What you say would probably be cool, even if against all the rules of existing RPG games :lol:

Well since I'm still on design stage I could actually delete a few races - but make them more detailed as you say.

I'm seriously thinking to do this... better add a new race later in an expansion pack, but with a completely new set of spells/skills.

Incredible you managed to change my mind... maybe! :shock:

KnockOut May 10, 2007

First off, yay! Yay for eliminating irrelevant race/class combos and increasing the relevant number of choices.

Now, there's one more source of inflation in RPGs and that's the dungeon. Usually there's a whole bunch of empty rooms and it takes forever to get back out of the dungeon(tower).

Unless, these excess rooms are incorporated somehow in tactics why would anyone build a tower with a whole bunch of empty rooms? If the boss has designed the tower wouldn't he design it to be able to get into and out of the tower as quickly as possible and to minimize the ability of intruders to get in.

I guess you could argue that the boss is a minotaur and likes nice inefficient walkways with a bunch of scattered monsters and treasures.

The upstairs and downstairs should be right next to each other. Make the upstairs require a key or thief(or thieves to open). Although, maybe the boss wouldn't want a key because it's annoying to have to keep opening doors.

Every room should have a guard monster/trap or both. No pointless rooms please. Having to explore a bunch of empty corridors is boring especially given that most RPGs now have an automap unless those corridors somehow are necessary for distance fighting.

Every room should have a purpose and I've said this before but every trap and monster should be more challenging then having to press the attack button for every character.

So less rooms/more quality.

Less monsters/more quality.

Less traps/more quality.

I don't want to have to play the game while I'm watching TV while I'm killing mundane monsters and autopressing buttons to get back to town.

P.S. Maybe your next blog entry could deal with the dungeon layout or town to better give suggestions.

jack1974 May 10, 2007

First I'm still working on the races/classes, so is a bit early to talk about that

:lol:

For now I just made possible to create almost any race/class. A dwarf thief or wizard? sure. Of course wouldn't be able to cast so powerful spells maybe, but he could be more a battlemage than a wizard.

Everything in practice is skill based, like Oblivion, so the initial choices reflect what will be the intial skills level, and skill caps.

Ok, now about the dungeon layout I agree. I literally hate when in Diablo or other dungeon crawler you have to WASTE 15-20 minutes to get back to town every time because you don't have the "town portal" spell.

I am thinking what to do to solve this. Probably I can make a sort of "autowalk" to town, so you will still travel back to town by foot but will be done automatically by the CPU, and you'll be interrupted only if there will be any obstacles (maybe wandering enemy?) before getting back to town.

The argument about few but good - I'm not really sure about it, I liked the idea to kill 50 sewer rats to get to level 1

KnockOut May 10, 2007

First I'm still working on the races/classes, so is a bit early to talk about that

For now I just made possible to create almost any race/class. A dwarf thief or wizard? sure. Of course wouldn't be able to cast so powerful spells maybe, but he could be more a battlemage than a wizard.

Everything in practice is skill based, like Oblivion, so the initial choices reflect what will be the intial skills level, and skill caps.

What you could do regarding odd classes like dwarf thief or wizard is: make powerful items that only a dwarf thief or wizard can use, have one unique powerful spell for every race/class combination(ie. dwarves hate magic, so a dwarf wizard can have a powerful anti-magic spell that halves the damage done by enemy wizards and for a dwarf thief, dwarves might be too dumb to use their brain to unlock doors and disarm traps, but a dwarf thief may be the best at breaking down locked doors and smashing traps even better than a dwarven fighter who wouldn't train in such activities).

The danger with being skill based is that eventually as the game progresses all the classes become increasingly similar. At the end of the game any character shouldn't be able to do everything, they should be a lot better at their one trade.

The argument about few but good - I'm not really sure about it, I liked the idea to kill 50 sewer rats to get to level 1

Well, you can kill 50 sewer rats to get to level 1, but have the user face all 50 sewer rats at once!

If you're going to have random encounters, than you should consider having a time limit on the game. Too many RPGs have infinite resources eliminating strategy. If you have to complete the game within a time limit then that encourages replay so you have to beat your record. There could be changes to the town and tower over periods of time too.

Astral May 10, 2007

If you're going to have random encounters, than you should consider having a time limit on the game. Too many RPGs have infinite resources eliminating strategy. If you have to complete the game within a time limit then that encourages replay so you have to beat your record. There could be changes to the town and tower over periods of time too.

This is a big turnoff for me. I hate being rushed! If I fail to react quickly I am penalized or even worse I have to restart from a certain point.

However, I can understand some people like the concept of timelimits (which for the life of me I can't figure out why). Therefore, if you do decide to implement a time limit please make that an option you can turn on and off.

I have enough time limits and deadlines in my real life and the last thing I need is one in a game in which I'm supposed to have fun and RELAX!

jack1974 May 11, 2007

I don't like time limit either. But isn't really a problem, can be an option only for "hardcore" playing mode

Indeed I plan to make 2 difficulty levels: normal and hard. The normal will have no time limit and easier stuff in general, while the hard will have a time limit, less resources and so on.

About the classes/skills, I explained myself badly, as it is now each race has 2 deities, and those 2 deities define which spells they can use. So for example the dwarven one have really particular spells like creating magic weapons and healing, rather than raw nuke power.

And the skills will have caps - so for example while it will be possible to have a dwarf wizard, his skills in some areas will never be so high as a ice elf. But still if you want you can play it

KnockOut May 11, 2007

I don't like time limit either. But isn't really a problem, can be an option only for "hardcore" playing mode

Indeed I plan to make 2 difficulty levels: normal and hard. The normal will have no time limit and easier stuff in general, while the hard will have a time limit, less resources and so on.

Risk versus reward. I don't like the idea of a hard mode with no extra rewards. If I'm going to play hard I want to be rewarded with better treasure, special cutscenes, more experience, etc.

jack1974 May 11, 2007

I'll think about extra exp maybe, but in any case I won't put any time limit for sure. I hate that in games :shock:

Astral May 11, 2007

I'll think about extra exp maybe, but in any case I won't put any time limit for sure. I hate that in games

Now that's what I want hear. I think its for the best!

On a seperate note, I was reading your blog and it occurred to me have you given any thought to auto-mapping yet? I'm not sure if each level of the tower will be maze-like or not, but certainly a nice auto-map which places symbols whenever you encounter something major or minor would really help the player, especially if you decide to go with a maze-like environment.

For example, the auto-map will make a symbol whenever the player encounters the following on the level:

Light Red Star for weak monsters (your everyday normal monsters)

Dark Red Star for strong monsters (bosses, etc.)

White Star for items not yet picked up.

Gray Star for items dropped.

Yellow Star for treasure not yet collected.

Brown Star for staircases.

Green Stars for positive events (like health fountain, mana well, etc.)

Black Stars for negative events (known traps, pitfalls, etc.)

And the list goes on....

I was also thinking as the auto-map fills these stars in; whenever, the player moves their cursor over the symbol it will give them more info. about what is contained in that spot.

So for instance: I have discovered five green stars which are scattered about the map. If I mouse over the green star in the far right corner of the map, it tells me that a rebirth shrine exists there. If I mouse over the green star in the bottom left corner of the map, it tells me that a merchant exists there. And so on and so forth for the other three green stars and any other green stars I come across.

jack1974 May 12, 2007

Yes the automap SHOULD work like that! I hope that it won't take too much time to program it, but I'll try to implement it as you're describing... player should only think about which strategy to use, not trying to remember what there was in that dark corner...

KnockOut May 13, 2007

Read the latest blog and I like all the red/white/yellow etc. magic classes. One minor thing I don't like is that druids would be a fighter/mage hybrid class. This could be a mistake as later you mention paladin and skirmishers as the hybrid classes. Still I couldn't envision druids(seem like pure mages who specialize in nature magic) and skirmishers(seem like a beserker/barbarian type) as hybrids. I'm pretty much anti-hybrids in general, why not take the specialist?

jack1974 May 13, 2007

Well I'm currently revising all the skills. Initially I put min-max values, then I thought a better idea: a skill increase multiplier instead.

Basically says how fast that class learn a particular skills. There are some exception like wizard, healers etc that can't use 2h weapon (I don't see a wizard with a giant sword on hands). But apart for some obvious limitation, the rest is open-ended.

I mean, if you want you can have your wizard use his dagger (piercing weapon) and, with LOT of time, he would be able to get to piercing skill 100 - same as a warrior, but of course a warrior would be able to get to level 100 much faster.

This is just a stupid example of course

there are lot of combinations possible this way, even for fighting classes.

In practice every skill (unless the class forbid it) can be mastered if you continuously practice it in the game - just some classes increase some skills faster than others.

So you can specialize. Two druid can be very different, one unable to fight but excellent in green magic, the other excellent fighter with sabre and shield and just average in magic

iulius May 13, 2007

I like this system. Is like Oblivion, but with a different class multiplier - interesting idea. Also, since you mentioned that you'd have to use up to 25 "heroes" (characters) through the game, that would be even more interesting. Having some fighters specialized in one kind of weapon, then going back to town to switch hero if I find a new powerful weapon of a particular kind (axe, mace, etc).

This is something I've never seen before in a single player CRPG. Will be interesting to check it out! :twisted:

KnockOut May 13, 2007

So you can specialize. Two druid can be very different, one unable to fight but excellent in green magic, the other excellent fighter with sabre and shield and just average in magic

Roleplay wise I don't like the idea of a druid with a sabre and shiled. I wouldn't be bothered if he had a shield of nature or a Sabre made from elephant tusks. I could see a druid fighter as long as wielded weapons like Axe of the Elephant, Sword of the Lion, etc. I wouldn't be bothered be a wizard wielding a super powerful axe as long as it was something like the Axe of Magical Mastery. Just change the nature of the weapons/armor to make them line up roleplay wise to their class.

Or you could do it like:

Your party finds the uber powerful Axe of Bashing. You want to give it to your druid. You go back to town. Your party goes to the druid guild and the guild adds some enhancements to the Axe to make it the mighty Axe of the Forests. Now in the druids inventory screen the Axe is made of bark and looks more druidy.

Now as for the skills are there going to be any geek skills like:

Diplomacy

Bartering

Dancing

Economics

etc.

jack1974 May 13, 2007

Well while I would like to add such fancy skills, I am unfortunately forced to concentrate on fighting skills only

But once the system works, I'll be able to expand it - but for the first episode surely I want to concentrate in finishing the basic rules for fights first.

Believe me, it is already much more complex than any other games I've made in the past! :shock:

Astral May 14, 2007

So you can specialize. Two druid can be very different, one unable to fight but excellent in green magic, the other excellent fighter with sabre and shield and just average in magic

Roleplay wise I don't like the idea of a druid with a sabre and shiled. I wouldn't be bothered if he had a shield of nature or a Sabre made from elephant tusks. I could see a druid fighter as long as wielded weapons like Axe of the Elephant, Sword of the Lion, etc. I wouldn't be bothered be a wizard wielding a super powerful axe as long as it was something like the Axe of Magical Mastery. Just change the nature of the weapons/armor to make them line up roleplay wise to their class.

Or you could do it like:

Your party finds the uber powerful Axe of Bashing. You want to give it to your druid. You go back to town. Your party goes to the druid guild and the guild adds some enhancements to the Axe to make it the mighty Axe of the Forests. Now in the druids inventory screen the Axe is made of bark and looks more druidy.

Now as for the skills are there going to be any geek skills like:

Diplomacy

Bartering

Dancing

Economics

etc.

While I appreciate all the suggestions you have made, I think your trying to make this a needlessly Complicated Role Playing Game (CRPG, sorry I couldn't resist).

I'm not sure if you are getting your inspiration from Vogel's Spiderweb games, but I think ToD should be like Jack's other games: simple and to the point.

The amount of games out there that make you think like your back in school are plenty enough, and for me that is where the fun gets lost. Sure, I want a challenging game just like anybody else, but not at the expense of continuous gameplay.

Maybe I'm in the minority but I for one don't feel like being overburdened by a game, because everything requires detailed information and thought in order to execute. I want to be able to step away from a game for a week, and still be able to come back to it without missing a step.

Magic Stones is a perfect example. At one point I went several months without playing, but when I came back to it the time gap seemed non-existant. The reason is because the game is kept simple (read: NOT dumbed-down) so you don't feel like your mind is going to explode.

jack1974 May 14, 2007

Heh well is clear what kind of RPG knockout would want :wink:

But as I said, I'm not so stupid to try to make something bigger than I can. I'll start simpler first, and expand later. I like those kind of games, one of my preferred RPG is Fallout. But I'm not going to attempt to make such a HUGE game alone now!

Beside, there isn't much to socialize in a dungeon infested by monsters, so those skills would be useless right now :lol: