jack1974
Jan 28, 2015
I'm copy-pasting a reply I made to a comment in blog since is easy to miss it, because I think is interesting... user saying that, pfuit obviously Loren did better, has more catchy theme, instead SOTW banner was boring. Note that I think might be true, HOWEVER as I said:
I am not sure exactly HOW MUCH impact it had. I have stats for the clicks of banners:
Loren had 1.14% CTR = 11,848 Clicks (to store page)
SOTW had 0.43% CTR = 4,426 Clicks
based on that yes, of course the banner of Loren was more effective. But if was just that the problem!!! LOL I could solve it in a minute. If we consider those stats, you could say that Loren on Steam sold only 3 times SOTW. Wrong, after 2 weeks it sold 15 TIMES SOTW. No banner/title/name can justify a 15 times difference to be honest, especially if from my own site the sales are just slightly lower than Loren (about 10-15%).
Also my other game Roommates had even more impressive stats:
1.83% CTR = 18,488 Clicks!
And yet sold worse than SOTW 
Anyway, I’ve learned my lesson. I’ll put first crazy/silly/stupid/hilarious ideas, discarding more serious ones, since it seems that nowadays the ONLY important thing in a game is to make something “catchy”. Smoked-salmon vs Zombies? 1h gameplay for $4.99? woah amazing give me! = $1M dollars sales. Epic roleplaying saga with 150h of gameplay? what $25 pricetag!!? boring, pass.
sunblaze318
Jan 28, 2015
While I share that feeling about silly pricetags in steam.
At least you can be sure that at least those that did bought it had fun and did it to support you or actually play the game.
Those 4,99$ silly games usally are bought in bulk then forgotten because you don't have the time anyway and let's be ohnest most are that retarded you never realy wanted to play them at all.
"Just because the title sounded wierd" is not exactly a goal I would have for any roleplaying game.
Economically that doesn't really help you but I hope at least morally. *thumbs up*
You did good work with SotW we know that!
jack1974
Jan 28, 2015
Thanks for the moral support
iWeasle
Jan 30, 2015
I am not sure exactly HOW MUCH impact it had. I have stats for the clicks of banners:
Loren had 1.14% CTR = 11,848 Clicks (to store page)
SOTW had 0.43% CTR = 4,426 Clicks
based on that yes, of course the banner of Loren was more effective. But if was just that the problem!!! LOL I could solve it in a minute. If we consider those stats, you could say that Loren on Steam sold only 3 times SOTW. Wrong, after 2 weeks it sold 15 TIMES SOTW. No banner/title/name can justify a 15 times difference to be honest, especially if from my own site the sales are just slightly lower than Loren (about 10-15%).
Also my other game Roommates had even more impressive stats:
1.83% CTR = 18,488 Clicks!
And yet sold worse than SOTW
What does that even mean?...
Moral_Support += 1; anyways, but I have no clue what those numbers mean
.
Troyen
Jan 31, 2015
Do you still think it might be worthwhile to spice up the SotW banner for at least some extra clicks or is it not worth it this far post-release.
jack1974
Jan 31, 2015
No I don't think is worth it, also because Roommates had super-good banner, and yet sold less than SOTW... Steam really is a world apart, with a good dose of RAND() in it
Well not exactly random though, add boobs + 500% sales boosts, add zombies +200% sales boots
that's why I must do a yuri-boob-zombie-survival game!
fleetp
Jan 31, 2015
Include vampires and you'll have a winner! When I included the word 'vampire' in subject line of a post about one of my visual novels, website views and downloads jumped dramatically.
jack1974
Jan 31, 2015
Lol yes forgot vampire, is another good keyword
iWeasle
Feb 02, 2015
Winter Wolves Presents:
Zombie Fighting Yuri Vampire Boobs The Game: Fanservice Edition
Troyen
Feb 02, 2015
And since it's a WW game, you could choose to play as either the Zombie or the Vampire Boobs!
kadakithis
Feb 02, 2015
It now sounds like a game making fun of and lampooning games that do, that sort of thing. If you ever make a parody of that gaming trend, Jack, I am right on it!
IotaOne
Feb 03, 2015
Hello!
This is my first post here. Usually i only read through the forums without commenting, but since
you seem a bit to be at a loss of answers in matters of buyers i want to try to point out some
conspicuities from the view of someone who likes your games but didnt buy sotw (yes, i'm one of those).
This are not facts or the ultimate wisdom, just something i noticed.
-At the frontpage at the store, if i read the description box i have no clue what the story of the game is about.
Maybe you are saying this is no big deal, since there is plenty of information down below, but you have
to provide a reason to scroll down.
-The banner of Loren was a super duper eyecatcher. That was mentioned already but attention is important,
especially for computer games.
-Loren was mentioned somewhere in the media. Even the german games page i usually read mentioned it.
If i wouldnt visit ww's site daily i would not have known about the existance of sotw.
Of course these arguments are not important for themselves, but if we talk about steam, its all about the sum of mass.
personal notes (i know the notes above were already personal but i am at loss of adjectives here and i am not a native English speaker):
The art style of sotw did not catch me. I cant exactly give you a reason here but the human/elf characters give me
a different impression than in other titles, especially in the bathhouse group scene the girls look unproportional.
On the other hand e.g. the character drawings in Amber's Magic Shop make me want to buy the game without knowing what it is about,
altough of course there is a lot of established advanced trust.
"Dont do your own marketing" - this is a quote from a journalist for indy developers. The context was completly
different but it can be applied to most developers for various reasons.
I apologize if i was not that helpful or sounded hostile, and of course nobody wants to hear that somebody didnt like his/her work,
but actually i cant say whether i like the game or not, there is just no reason for me to buy it, aside from not enought time to play
right now etc.
jack1974
Feb 03, 2015
No worries you're not sounding hostile
Replying shortly to some points:
- Loren was mentioned in the media. Actually I got more reviews of SOTW than Loren before Steam launch. Loren's review started to come only after it was on Steam. I just got a request for a review code from the same german magazine who reviewed Loren for example
- Banner. Yes probably. Yet as I said in another post, Roommates banner was super-popular, more than Loren, and yet the game sold less than SOTW. So I am not convinced it does matter that much, I think is simply Steam that's different now. If I launched Loren today would probably make 1/10 of money too. I spoke with many other indies and nobody had success launching a game on Steam in last 18 months. It's just too crowded now. Loren probably had the sexual element (which now seems popular on Steam...
) to catch the attention.
Just think this: "Of the 4300+ games on Steam (released 2003), 2500 have been added in the last 18 months." That means 4/day, vs before which was 1/day or less. Quite a difference!!!
Regarding the art, OK I don't know about that I think is personal tastes.
If by "don't do your own marketing" you are suggesting I should hire a marketer, no thanks. Even in this case, speaking with several other indies (and TOP indies... not like me
) they all had very bad experiences, paying PR/marketing agencies several thousands for no visible/tangible results. I'd rather keep that money and add more art/music/stuff to the games!
In any case, as I have already said, the issue is that the game sold less DIRECT. Steam is a world apart. But if the game sold less than Loren even direct... it simply sells worse, for a reason or another. Sometimes games are like this, they don't work and you don't know what to do. Lesson learned for the future
kadakithis
Feb 03, 2015
Iota, I mean I am somewhat new here but people are pretty nice, as long as you are not out and out rude or mean people don't really mind. We are fans, but Jack asks for input sometimes and some love it and some don't. I bought SotW because it was made by Winterwolves and gave me a lesbian option that wasn't made just to tantalize, or ends in sorrow and death. I had apparently bought most of their games over the years accidentally looking for just that, Imagine my surprise that Spirited Heart, Heileen, Loren and Love and Order were all made by the same person.
Honestly, I will even buy the non lesbian options games to support the only one I know on the market who makes this stuff, I enjoyed SotW but disliked the combat system and the lack of social interactions. Despite already buying the game, they listened to my critique, not necessarily agreeing with it, but as long as you aren't mean, people are pretty awesome on here.
On Topic: I will say that the art did seem different. Some characters like Vealis looked pretty awesome, but Althea looked... blank? It felt really weird playing Althea at times because she seemed more generic beside characters like Vealis, Rowinda, and Krimm. Shea wasn't as blank? but he seemed to lack a particular character as well. It might be that Saren and Elenor had different backgrounds and reactions in some cases while Shea and Althea lacked the intresting backgrounds and character of the rest of the cast.
Madance
Feb 03, 2015
I bought SotW because it was made by Winterwolves and gave me a lesbian option that wasn't made just to tantalize, or ends in sorrow and death. I had apparently bought most of their games over the years accidentally looking for just that, Imagine my surprise that Spirited Heart, Heileen, Loren and Love and Order were all made by the same person.
Honestly, I will even buy the non lesbian options games to support the only one I know on the market who makes this stuff(...)
Don't we all, my dear, don't we all? Lesbians do get the shorter end of the stick when it comes to well made romances, since most of the games target the male audience rather than the female audience. So it's a nice change to see a real romance and a real character... Really, some so called AAA games could learn a lot with some of Winter Wolves Games around here.
Really, I looked everywhere for a game author that would care as m
uch as Jack does, and I feel like our feedback is relevant to them as much to the community itself. So don't be afraid to express your opinion on anything. Here, it is listened and taken into consideration.
Miakoda
Feb 03, 2015
It now sounds like a game making fun of and lampooning games that do, that sort of thing. If you ever make a parody of that gaming trend, Jack, I am right on it!
And now I have in mind a game titled Love Bites!
Sylrissa
Feb 03, 2015
It now sounds like a game making fun of and lampooning games that do, that sort of thing. If you ever make a parody of that gaming trend, Jack, I am right on it!
And now I have in mind a game titled Love Bites!
Makes me think of a vampire romance game
jack1974
Feb 04, 2015
On Topic: I will say that the art did seem different. Some characters like Vealis looked pretty awesome, but Althea looked... blank? It felt really weird playing Althea at times because she seemed more generic beside characters like Vealis, Rowinda, and Krimm. Shea wasn't as blank? but he seemed to lack a particular character as well. It might be that Saren and Elenor had different backgrounds and reactions in some cases while Shea and Althea lacked the intresting backgrounds and character of the rest of the cast.
Ah I misunderstood here, I thought the original poster referred to the DESIGN/ART, not the characters personality. I think it's not writer's fault in this case since the fact that you could both play as one of the two siblings made things more complex. The DLC will fix this issue, because the party is split in two, a sibling on each
Makes me think of a vampire romance game
One of my secret project (still just an idea) would be called "Bite Me". It's about zombies
IotaOne
Feb 04, 2015
If by "don't do your own marketing" you are suggesting I should hire a marketer, no thanks. Even in this case, speaking with several other indies (and TOP indies... not like me ) they all had very bad experiences, paying PR/marketing agencies several thousands for no visible/tangible results. I'd rather keep that money and add more art/music/stuff to the games!
I didnt mean you should do that, but if you plan to invest time and/or money, you should consider what you did already anyway (speaking with other indies, getting infos, having a plan at all).
Personally i think you are on the right track, as you mentioned steam is pretty crowded but you already have your customer base.
jack1974
Feb 04, 2015
Yes I always try to do something new, to experiment. I think in modern market the most important thing is the "catchy theme". As others said, "Loren The Amazon Princess" (just the title) is more attractive than "Seasons Of The Wolf"
I need to find a more interesting theme/setting for future games. Then I think with the current writers I have available now, I'm almost sure to get a good/decent story. But I need to get people's interest first (for non-loyal followers).
