I don't like fixed amount traits or fixed amount anything else. Fixed amounts don't scale. Then again I suppose attributes don't either.

Having them non scale is GOOD in this case, otherwise some could be overpowered (the HP boost thing). No scaling solves the situation quickly (exactly what I needed).

I am really not sure about doing different traits for each class. That would mean instead of 9 as they're now, I should make 9 x 4 = 36... I have no time to do so many icons, they seem small but take a few days each, and artist has still to do some base skills ones so I don't think they would even be ready for the final game release!!



Currently I'm thinking:

1- fixed amounts

2- using fabula second table, since makes sense for example that a character spending a lot on Skill to increase defense would get also a big defense bonus, or spending on strength would get a big attack bonus and so on



This is possible to do without breaking everything, which is something I'm mostly afraid of

9x4? There are 3 classes only. And I'm not asking for 9 unique traits for each. Mostly they share the same traits, just that they're not equally accessible; easy to get traits that fix your weaknesses, hard to get traits that enhance your strengths. You would need maybe 3 more icons, and don't pretend you didn't steal most of these from Loren anyway



Also with no scaling it's like, Toughness 50 con/20 str gives +50 HP: Congrats on reaching 50 con! Let's make that 60 con. Cya. It feels very dry.

Ah yes lol, somehow I was thinking about Loren 2 where there are 4

Since the classes are 3 and the traits 9, could be 3 traits specific for each class. I think actually they should work like that already a bit.

Also with no scaling it's like, Toughness 50 con/20 str gives +50 HP: Congrats on reaching 50 con! Let's make that 60 con. Cya. It feels very dry.

I can use fixed values only for attack/defense, in which is harder to reach a +25 attack/defense. I think not even level 30 weapons have such bonuses

9x4? There are 3 classes only. And I'm not asking for 9 unique traits for each. Mostly they share the same traits, just that they're not equally accessible; easy to get traits that fix your weaknesses, hard to get traits that enhance your strengths. You would need maybe 3 more icons, and don't pretend you didn't steal most of these from Loren anyway



Also with no scaling it's like, Toughness 50 con/20 str gives +50 HP: Congrats on reaching 50 con! Let's make that 60 con. Cya. It feels very dry.

I suggested 50 HP because I couldn't look up the actual in-game value at the time. As they are now, traits are kind of like passive bonuses. Not really something you strive for, but something you pick up if you allocated most of your points in a certain way. Even so, +50 HP would save you what, 18 stat points? (Maybe it could just be 10 HP regen or something instead?) It's also close to a 15-20% HP bonus when you get it, it just doesn't scale (which would have all kinds of balance problems - 15% HP can be a huge difference later).



Sure, in theory traits could be more "game-changing". Like the dual-weild one which can alter your strategy (though you seem to get it rather late for that). But they don't currently seem set up that way, in general, and it's getting a bit late to be making significant changes to the combat system.

As they are now, traits are kind of like passive bonuses. Not really something you strive for, but something you pick up if you allocated most of your points in a certain way.

I'm pretty much racing to Toughness on an entire party. I would hardly rush with almost no exception to 50 con on 8 characters if not for the trait. I would probably stop at 40 with most if not all, and I wouldn't hurry so much to get there.



Anyway, after further thought, I think the whole idea of unlocking traits by reaching certain attribute levels is wrong, especially since stat pumping is otherwise discouraged: 1 point per upgrade until 20, 2 points until 40, and 3 after that... but if you manage to reach 50 you kinda get some bonus points, effectively like it suddenly got cheaper to spend points in the attribute. Yep, increasing the attribute gets progressively more expensive... but reach 50 to undo some of that! 20-40 you get 2.5 HP per point spent, and then 40+ you get 1.667 per point spent (worse), but if you push it to 50 and unlock the 50 bonus points it's suddenly 3.333 per point and more rewarding than the 20-40 step! As long as you stop there anyway. Stat pumping is discouraged but less so if you get really hardcore about it!



I'd rather we just picked traits like skills, and they varied between classes. Like the +defense trait for a warrior gives +10% (total, everything is total), and then +20% for a thief and +30% for a mage or something. However I'm a little concerned that we'd start building characters with few abilities and just a ton of traits to pimp us up. It's a cooler game when we use active abilities cleverly to own. If we could have "trait points" - maybe one at 5, one at 15 and one at 25 - or otherwise just cap us at max 3 traits that would avert that concern.



Can't say that wouldn't take us close to having to rebalance stuff though.



Also, I don't think I'm a fan of the dual wield trait. Why should you have to bend over backwards to make dual wield viable? Or is it, suffer through until you unlock that trait and then twosword starts beating bigsword? They should both work from level 1.

Hmm OK then what about this: they unlock every fixed level, like 5-15-25 (can be changed) and are only 3 but specific for each class:

Warrior: Toughness, Attacker, Defender (would tweak last two so are worth it)

Thief: Dual Wield, Critical Hit Bonus, Cold Blood

Mage: Archwizard, Willpower, Elementalist



I could even make three grades of each one in a skilltree (like old Loren): Toughness 1 = 5% bonus HP, Toughness 2 = 10%, Toughness 3 = 15%

In total there would still be 9 traits to pick, so you could pick a point every 5 levels and with a level cap of 25 you would still not be able to pick them all.



This is something I can do without spending too much time even if, ahem, might not work on current saves

Downside in limiting the traits to certain classes would be losing some of the customizing... For example, I have played with some non-standard choices for the traits, eg Cold Blooded mages or Critical hit/dual wield warriors... Not sure if anyone else likes to try out "weird combos" the way I do. I've even considered a defensive battlemage for the frontline as I have occasionally used some of my druid builds that way in act 1... The customization is one of the big fun factors for me here. Not saying that I absolutely "gottahaveit," I'll happily play with any trait-scheme you'll give us in the end. Just rooting for the choices available in class building so far.

Yes those are good points too. Anyway, for now I'll go on finishing the game that's the most important thing

Yeah that's not what I was asking for either, though of course there's no hurry with this. Maybe renke could hack the game to better demonstrate my idea



I just wanted to clarify what I said before: It doesn't make sense to have attribute requirements for the traits if the reward for unlocking them is the same as more points in that attribute. Then it'd be better to just keep it at +2/point past 40 too, else I think you'll see a lot of builds where attributes end at exactly 40, or exactly 50, or something much lower because the player wanted to unlock some other 50-trait.

I see what you mean. If toughness was an HP bonus, it would be better if it required skills OTHER THAN Constitution. So, instead of spending points in Con, you could pick up Toughness to compensate if you went 25/25 skill/strength or something else. Likewise, raising a non-attack stat might give you the +25 attack trait. That way, you have more flexibility in stat choices without getting totally behind, and it does seem like a "bonus" rather than "I raised my HP to get LOTS more HP".



These numbers are totally made up off the top of my head. Balancing might require lower bonuses, especially if the traits are "easier" to get.



(If there's a concern that this would lead to too many trait bonuses, then combine this with a "trait point" at levels 5, 15, and 25, required to earn the trait.)

I like the idea of traits used as special skill - and instead of using level steps a variant would be a trait for free as soon as two attributes reach 25 points (and 30/30, ...). So far I'm not conviced class-specific traits are needed, the existing ones are diverse and interesting enough to fulfill a role in every playing style and class combination (but some tweaking may be needed, out of my experience zone - I never used a trait so far)



> Maybe renke could hack the game

I was thinking this: apart some rebalancing of the traits, what if you could choose a trait once you reach a certain level (5-15-25 skill so you can have max 3 traits), using a skill point. So INSTEAD of a skill you could chose a trait which is some sort of permanent passive bonus (indeed internally they're considered passive skills).

So as Troyen/yaysword said, player wouldn't get too many traits. Also could be interesting since you have to choose between that and a normal skill

Yes, I would like that. Just scrap the attribute requirements and retune the traits too.



You mean that at those levels we would get a skill point that can only be used on a trait? 'cause 5 isn't normally a skill point level, though 15 is, and 25 shouldn't be.

5 isn't a normal skill point level, but it does let you conceivably get a trait just before the end of the demo.

I'm not at all opposed to the idea, I'm just wondering if we're getting 3 extra skill points that can only be spent on traits, or nothing changes about skill points except what we can spend them on. Gotta bear in mind though that since we can't save skill points, the trait that unlocks at level 25 would require us to reach level 27 to actually spec into - I said "25 shouldn't be" because after the level 4 skill point, all skill points are gained at levels that are multiples of 3 (leading us to 24 and 27). And if we are getting bonus points that can only be used on traits, it would mean 2 points at level 15, and probably a programming challenge to make it so we can spend one on a skill and one on a trait.



Another way to award traits might be to give one for each completed act

I'm not conviced class-specific traits are needed

Allow me to clarify them again. Let's say you want a +defense (seems to be my favorite example) trait available to all classes. How much should it give? 10%? I would take that as warrior but not as a mage. 30%? I would take that as a mage (though not over +30% magic) and I would be overpowered with it as a warrior. I don't think we need entirely new concepts for every class, but the numbers should be adjusted. Although we should certainly get crit/dual wield traits out of the mage tree - dual wield out of all trees probably - and I would love to see speed/threshold traits.



I'm not saying invent traits like +20% magic bolt damage for mages and +20% ranged attack for thieves and +20% melee attack for warriors. Just that the current concepts should be tuned so that augmenting your strengths doesn't come as cheaply as fixing your weaknesses.

That's why I think flat bonuses would work better for multiple classes than %s. My arbitrary example of +25 defense is still all right for warriors because that's more armor than you can get on a single piece of gear. It may not be the best choice for every warrior, depending on the other traits, but that might be okay too - characters can specialize in different things. It also is effectively a bigger bonus for mages than warriors because mages have less armor in general to begin with, so +25 is a significant increase for them. (It's worth what, about 3-5 pieces of mage gear?)

Yes, effectively that might work out the same. I like the idea of flat bonuses much more when they're not tied to unlocking traits through attributes. It's quite a good idea.



However, bear in mind they will get gradually less exciting as the game goes on. That +25 defense could indeed be 5 pieces of gear for a mage early on, but could very well end up as 1-2. It will not quite create the effect of "the mage is now permanently this much less squishy", as the bonus will fade. It could be something like +3 defense/level if that's easily programmed. It's still a rather flat bonus, and it doesn't scale with loot luck or casino addiction.



(yes I live on these forums )

I like the idea of fixed value X level, not sure though if that could be easily programmable, should ask Anima about it

And the initial idea was to use the skill points to unlock the traits, to make it a more "tough choice". I actually think I can change the level up screen so that the players can go on without assigning the skillpoints if they want and have them accumulate like the attribute points. Need to check but should be fine!

If the traits will be tied to levels, then they'll be as easily acquired in NM/HARD as they are in EASY, as opposed to the attribute point-situation now. Not that I'd have anything against it. Just pointing it out. Maybe the fact that one gets fewer traits in NM/HARD - as the system is now - wasn't as big a part of the difficulty factor to begin with? Unless, of course, the fixed value gained per level will be different in each mode.

And the initial idea was to use the skill points to unlock the traits, to make it a more "tough choice".

I think that sounds good, it should make for some tough choices indeed. But the level 25 trait unlock is gonna be a bit dangerous, since many people won't get that unless they know and remember to save the skill point. I'm not sure they need such harsh pacing. I'm looking through my characters and I'm not really finding a "ah yep, DEFINITELY taking three traits immediately here". On a druid I probably wouldn't take a trait until the 6th or 7th skill point, at least if their power level is around what we have been discussing. Same with Krimm and Vaelis; a lot of tools I'd likely want to get first. On a ranger and Riley it might be my 5th point. The others join so late that there's no such thing as "early traits" on them