I've thought for a week about this, and I am currently thinking to release the game as "pure VN". It will probably be around 200k words, it has a lot of choices, endings and 32 (yep, THIRTY-TWO!!!) different CGs, so it's not like there isn't enough content for a VN...



A card gameplay was out of question of course. I thought about RPG gameplay... but the kind of setting won't work as RPG, since the game was made to be team vs team battle. There's no "journey". You don't travel to defeat an enemy evil like Loren, or escape/survive like in SOTW.



A pokemon gameplay MIGHT work. But yet, if I've learned one thing this year, is that the only kind of game in which people like to read, apart VN/Dating Sims (obviously!) it's RPG.

People who want to play card game, fire up Hearthstone/whatever and just play. They don't want to read a 200k words long story no matter how good it is. If they wanted that, they would play a visual novel, dating sim, adventure game, etc (a story-based game).



I will go in detail in the next Friday's blog post about this, but I've (finally lol) realized that the worst thing is to mix two kind of games/gameplay that aren't compatible.



Of course there's still time for UL release. I might come up with some simple gameplay idea, something that could work in the contest without being too much work. We'll see

Meh, interest gone down the drain....

Sorry, but I need to think to self-preservation as indie

As said, a RPG wouldn't work. I would code for 4 months, only to see my effort gone in vain. And even if I added some sort of team battle, it might still not work. The game was built based on the premise that VN+card gameplay was OK, while that really wasn't the case

(no wonder there weren't any other VN+card game around!)



Also another big problem is that (again lol) this game went out of control, too big, so doing any other effort (like coding for months) would add even more risk in case the game doesn't perform as expected.



As will say in next Friday's blog, it's just not possible anymore to have 200k+ words long VN + gameplay and sell them for $20. It's a total suicide in the current market (especially when all other indies make games at best long half that amount, and sell at same price or just $5 less).

Mmmh, so if an rpg framework is off the table, a pure visual novel? (perhaps with stat-raising for friendships/romances like Spirited Heart / Always Remember me?

Would be a shame to loose out on all that awesome artwork and ideas that have gone into Undead Lily (and the Elemental Avengers!)

I don't know the failure of the VN+card game idea messed up all my plans, honestly

When you plan something like this, and have to change everything... it's the worst thing that can happen during the development of a game !



With the various games I had a plan, and executed it. Queen Of Thieves, C14 Dating, etc. But here, the core gameplay idea needed to be changed, and with over half story written in a certain way (team based battles)... not sure. Maybe I just need to make some prototypes to get a new idea before it's too late

Pure VN? Sounds interesting to me!

Well even if in the end I add gameplay, allowing people to play it in "VN Mode" like I did with PSCD wouldn't be a problem anyway

You gotta do what you gotta do. Hopefully it'll sell, but remember Bionic Heart 2.

Bionic Heart 2 was... sci-fi. Coincidence? Even if to be honest I have no clue what category UL fits, it's really weird!

The hilarious thing is that after working on PSCD, the easiest/fastest thing to do for me for UL gameplay would be another card game. Probably once I have all art could be done in 1 month!

A solution I've been considering while talking with writer, was to still do it as card game, but sell the card game separately. Like VN plus card game as DLC.

However, I don't think that people who like card games would pay for a VN part that they probably won't play.

So I've been thinking that the opposite would make more sense. A "battle mode", full featured card game as base, then the possibility to buy a story mode as DLC.

Or in the end, just do two separate games I need to check on Steam, because directly would be no problem to have a free demo, and then possibility to purchase EITHER the card game, OR the visual novel. So everyone could buy what they prefer.

I believe I could create a new product on Steam and set the price free, which would basically be a demo, and then offer two separate DLCs, one for the story and the other for the card game.



I have an headache now

http://www.winterwolves.net/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=3816#p37358

If you strip the cards out, perhaps you could sell a UL-theme card game as an addon? Like the base Undead Lily game is the VN, and for an additional price you can add card gameplay? Seems like a waste of all that card art.

I don't think the PSCD gameplay was bad, so ruling out a UL card game of some type seems a shame. Whether or not you bundle it with the UL VN or make it a companion release targeted at card gamers (who will hopefully like the characters enough some of them try out the VN), I think there are still ways to make it work.



Besides, the art style is totally different, so that may also have some impact.

Hearthstone adventures comes the closest I can think of to story + card game, and people buy those (and they're priced at $25, but with an AAA brand name). So I think story and cards can work.



Though if you were to do it again, I'd suggest having the focus be on the cards in the player's deck rather than micromanaging all the cards in the team decks. Being able to choose your teammate was cool. Your ideal teammate having not-so-great cards and needing cards from a character you didn't like as well was a bit of a detriment. (And the interface for juggling cards across sixteen characters was kind of confusing.) Naturally, the player would still earn cards over the course of the game, but there's really one growing/upgradeable set instead of sixteen.

PSCD gameplay was good - nobody actually criticized it. At least those who actually played it

And yes both the art style and setting are very different, and considering how many people criticized the art, that might have been the main reason.



Hearthstone adventures have NO STORY. Just a setting and maybe 10 words That's the problem, people don't want to read 100k words, they want to play a game.



And of course it's not like I can redo the story now.



Haha, decisions, decisions. No matter what I'll do, it will be the wrong one

It's up to you, Jack!



But I was wondering, why can't you stick to your original plan? It seems the problem with PSCD was more due to the artwork than gameplay. No one really criticized the card game (most seem to find it fun), but there have been comments on the art not being the style that fits their taste (I think the artist did a good job, but it veers towards realistic and western, which might make animanga fans think it unsuitable for them). But Undead Lily has an anime style, so it will attract the correct people.

Of course I could "take the risk", and hope PSCD problem was really the art. I honestly think UL would sell more just for the anime art (it has a very good quality) and the sheer amount of CGs. (and they are ahem VERY hot, some more than Loren's ).

My main issue is that maybe some card game players wouldn't buy it because there's a lot to read. As posted elsewhere for RPGs is a minor problem. Sure I got people complaining that SOTW had too much text, but it was really a minority. RPG players are used to read (unless they only played Diablo or action RPGs).

So I fear that maybe I put effort on the card game, and then a lot of potential customers/card game players wouldn't play it because of the VN part.

I guess I could avoid this if I offer some kind of "battle mode" though...

Nevermind, I just built a test version and started reading it. There's definitely a lot of texts to read. This can't work with anything but a visual novel. No card/rpg player is going to read 242 lines of text before a choice shows up.

Don't get me wrong, I think the story is well written, but the problem is that visual novels now sell really poorly, so I'm not sure it's worth finishing it as a VN. I need to pause everything a moment and rethink the whole thing.

Recently I've been doing too many things at once, making too many mistakes.

If I might put my two cents in...



I think making Undead Lily a pure VN could work if you have a solid enough story that customers will be interested in reading. I kind of disagree that pure VNs sell poorly. If they do, it's because the story just isn't good. I suppose that's why I place story and writing to be so important, even more so than art.



I think that people who buy and play your games are used to more of a "game play" element like stat-raising, battle mode, etc. But I think it's ok to take a risk and leave this element out and go for a pure VN if you believe that the story itself will sell well. It might be a good idea to ask for a few beta readers to take a look at it and give their opinions and all. ^^

True I should probably ask the opinions of some beta readers, since it's too personal (I mean I like the story but I honestly don't know if others would like it too). Not sure though who would want to read it (and spoil a bit the surprise while playing) ?

True but you can always ask for volunteers. I think that's what Hanako is doing for the Lily Princess game. (I may not have the exact name correct. XD) Also, it isn't necessary to make the beta readers read the entire story. Just the first couple of chapters will do so people can give their initial impressions. ^^

OK well, if there are any volunteers then, I would really like to get some feedback on the first chapters of the story, to get a better idea if my opinion of the game is the same as others...