P_Tigras
Jan 06, 2013
Lv 20 Saren, Lv 16 Karen. Totally get my ass kicked by Grob in hard mode. Breza comes in at Lv 12 and is completely useless. There's a fair chance I get wiped in the 1st turn when the wizard in the back nukes, but I would probably die from pressure in 3 turns otherwise anyway. I must be missing something fundamental in setup and tactics. Help?
This is easily one of the top two most challenging fights I faced at the hard difficulty level. And I agree that Breza is totally useless and dies almost instantly. She isn't worth resurrecting during the battle either. Another added difficulty with this fight is that Karen's Whirlwind ability is broken. Whirlwind III does not do 130% damage to three nearby targets as its info blurb says. It does 90% damage to one target, and 50% damage to neighboring targets in the same row. Contrast that with Dora's Rain of Arrows III which does 200% damage to one target, and 100% damage to neighboring targets in the same row. For a third tier power with double prerequisites, Whirlwind III is pretty pathetic really and I rarely ever use it. It doesn't compare to what other characters can do. Are you playing Saren as a fighter or a thief? Saren/Elenor really is the key to coming out victorious, and your approach will necessarily be dependent on your character's profession.
Ha! I'm just cheap since consumables are generally something I forget about. I tried haste potions but I suppose there's no substitute for a few bombs to convince an enemy mage to stand down.
I'll have to reload my Chapter 3 save now... 
A man after my own heart. Consumables are for the weak.
EDIT: My damage analysis for Whirlwind III above was off because I assumed it was based on melee damage just like Strike Through III. It isn't. It's based on your ranged attack damage instead.
jack1974
Jan 06, 2013
Another added difficulty with this fight is that Karen's Whirlwind ability is broken. Whirlwind III does not do 130% damage to three nearby targets as its info blurb says. It does 90% damage to one target, and 50% damage to neighboring targets in the same row.
That is odd! I checked Whirlwind3 and the parameters are correct:
[code] class Whirlwind3(Whirlwind1):
cName = "Whirlwind III"
cDescription = "Hits 3 nearby targets for 130% damage, with 50% chances of causing weakened condition for 7 turns"
cBranchLevel = 6
cRequiredLevel = 1
cRequiredSkills = [FocusTarget3,StrikeThrough3]
cPower = 1.3
cCost = 25
cWait = 9
cEffects = [WeakenedEffect3]
cChance = 50[/code]
the cPower = 1.3 means that the multiplier is x1,3 so in practice 130% of the base attack. Wondering why doesn't work... just for comparison Dora's rain of arrow is defined like this:
[code] class ArrowRain3(ArrowRain1):
cName = "Rain of Arrows III"
cDescription = "Hits single target for 200% damage and enemies around him take 50% of his damage (AOE)"
cBranchLevel = 6
cRequiredLevel = 1
cRequiredSkills = [Camouflage3,SneakAttack3]
cPower = 2.0
cAcc = 1.0
cCost = 30
cWait = 7
[/code]
I think probably the mess is because Dora uses missile while Karen uses a melee weapon even if she is a Thief. It was a bit a risky decision indeed. Oh well, too late to change now (would mess up all the balancing of the game). Another lesson learned for the future I guess
P_Tigras
Jan 06, 2013
Another added difficulty with this fight is that Karen's Whirlwind ability is broken. Whirlwind III does not do 130% damage to three nearby targets as its info blurb says. It does 90% damage to one target, and 50% damage to neighboring targets in the same row.
That is odd! I checked Whirlwind3 and the parameters are correct:
[code] class Whirlwind3(Whirlwind1):
cName = "Whirlwind III"
cDescription = "Hits 3 nearby targets for 130% damage, with 50% chances of causing weakened condition for 7 turns"
cBranchLevel = 6
cRequiredLevel = 1
cRequiredSkills = [FocusTarget3,StrikeThrough3]
cPower = 1.3
cCost = 25
cWait = 9
cEffects = [WeakenedEffect3]
cChance = 50[/code]
the cPower = 1.3 means that the multiplier is x1,3 so in practice 130% of the base attack. Wondering why doesn't work... just for comparison Dora's rain of arrow is defined like this:
[code] class ArrowRain3(ArrowRain1):
cName = "Rain of Arrows III"
cDescription = "Hits single target for 200% damage and enemies around him take 50% of his damage (AOE)"
cBranchLevel = 6
cRequiredLevel = 1
cRequiredSkills = [Camouflage3,SneakAttack3]
cPower = 2.0
cAcc = 1.0
cCost = 30
cWait = 7
[/code]
I think probably the mess is because Dora uses missile while Karen uses a melee weapon even if she is a Thief. It was a bit a risky decision indeed.
Ahh, I see the issue. I was mistaken in assuming that Whirlwind was based on melee damage just like Strike Through. Strike Through III is based on melee damage while Whirlwind III and Dora's Rain of Arrows III are based on missile damage. Karen does not have the ability to use heavy bows/crossbows the way the other Thieves do however so her Whirlwind III is impaired as a result. Why isn't Karen's whirlwind ability based on her melee damage like her strike through ability? The other issue with the info blurb is that all three targets in Whirlwind III are not hit with 130% damage, only the central target is. The neighboring enemies are hit with roughly half the damage of the central target.
Oh well, too late to change now (would mess up all the balancing of the game). Another lesson learned for the future I guess
Actually I do consider Karen broken as she's never a character I include in my party when playing on the hard level unless I have absolutely no choice like in the fight against Grob at the citadel. A big part of why the Grob fight is so challenging is because you're stuck with only Karen and Saren. I'd swap out Karen as she currently is for Dora any day.
jack1974
Jan 06, 2013
Ah wait, I found that in Strikethrough there was a parameter: cWeaponCategory = "Close" which I really suppose does the trick
Will include that change in the next update, but until Ren'Py is fixed to work on Mountain Lion will wait (don't want to have two OSes with one version and one with another).
About Karen I remember an user that was enthusiast with her because of the Skill / Speed trick, if you look the first posts in this thread he should explain how to use her, but if I remember correctly she was an useful party member
P_Tigras
Jan 06, 2013
Ah wait, I found that in Strikethrough there was a parameter: cWeaponCategory = "Close" which I really suppose does the trick
Will include that change in the next update, but until Ren'Py is fixed to work on Mountain Lion will wait (don't want to have two OSes with one version and one with another).
Ok. What about the issue that the info blurb states that all 3 targets receive 130% damage when only the central target does?
About Karen I remember an user that was enthusiast with her because of the Skill / Speed trick, if you look the first posts in this thread he should explain how to use her, but if I remember correctly she was an useful party member
Didn't the skill/speed trick get nerfed a bit? I did put all of Karen's points into skill, and while she does get the first attack, she tends to immediately get dog-piled and killed after that. The goblins seem as fast as she is, and keeping her alive long enough to do any significant damage takes thought, and sometimes, luck. The Goblin Wolfrider also has the ability to inflict slowed on her if she's in the front, and the Goblin Wizard can paralyze her wherever she is. Expect whoever is in front to get not only paralyzed and slowed, but also weakened and staggered. And every time Karen gets resurrected the bad guys get to dog pile her yet again, meaning she will likely go down again before she can attack unless Saren can successfully draw away most of the aggro.
My favorite solution tends to be to put fighter Saren with over 700 hits and Zeal's +40 dark damage sword in the front row to play tank. (He's 22nd level in my hard game.) Given that he can do 350-470 points of damage with each hit of that sword given the way he's equipped, he can take out any goblin in 2 hits, and he draws aggro pretty quick. Even if he gets slowed, staggered and paralyzed for a few rounds his high armor and hits allow him to take the punishment in a way that Karen never could, especially since Karen will still be free to go after that paralysis-casting wizard in the back row that's a royal pain in the backside. Saren thus leaves Karen safely standing in the back row and able to do her slow (delay 16) strike-through attacks taking out the back row goblin wizard with her Spear of the Wind.
While Focus III doesn't save you any actions in this case (3 actions either way for her to take out the wizard), it does reduce the delay of her first action down from 16 to 4, and guarantees that you'll stagger the wizard, making him less effective, and allowing you to get in Karen's third action (focus iii + 2 strikes) before he can make his second. So it's a good trade. Grob can bring the wizard back from the dead however so it's very much a race against time to dish out enough damage faster than Grob can restore his minions.
jack1974
Jan 06, 2013
I'm going to change the effect so that hits a full row on same damage, so hopefully Karen gets some better "ranking" in the party most wanted members
And yes you're right the speed trick was indeed nerfed a bit with the expansion. Interesting what you post, I think the main problem also is your high level. I don't remember exactly (months have passed) but I think when I playtested it every time I was max level 17-18.
P_Tigras
Jan 06, 2013
I'm going to change the effect so that hits a full row on same damage, so hopefully Karen gets some better "ranking" in the party most wanted members
I think there are more fundamental problems with Karen than just that, and the nerfing of the speed trick has exposed them. Even with the whirlwind damage issue fixed, I'd still consider her the weakest of the thieves for a number of interconnected reasons. Despite my strong personal preference for wizards, I've played all the other thieves at high levels enough to get a good understanding of how to maximise their effectiveness. They're all at level 20 in my hard game. Karen was the exception in that despite playing her up to the same level 20, I never could quite bring her up to the same level of effectiveness as the others. I will post more on what I consider to be her flaws in a follow-up post.
And yes you're right the speed trick was indeed nerfed a bit with the expansion. Interesting what you post, I think the main problem also is your high level. I don't remember exactly (months have passed) but I think when I playtested it every time I was max level 17-18.
Had NPC Karen not repeatedly wiped the floor with Loren during the Queen's Trial I probably would have tackled chapter 4 at level 18 instead of 22. That single battle was far harder than anything else I had encountered up to that point. So I decided to max out my store discounts and killed lots of cyclopses to boot so I could buy up all the best possible gear for the rematch, and while I was at it, I outfitted everyone else too. Loren and Ramas were absolute combat monsters at the end, and Draco, Apolimesho and Chambara were tricked out to lay waste to everything and anything with maximum elemental damage of any type desired. (I like my thieves, but I have a strong personal preference for wizards, especially since I didn't start playing until after wizard damage was improved. To quote Draco, "Whoosh!") Saren's main job was healing and recharging everyone. Few things lasted more than one or two rounds against my main six. Except when the game took one or more of them away, I ran through all of chapter 4 at the hard level with the same six and no substitutions. My armies got to sit on the sidelines and eat popcorn.
So the fight against Grob was an interesting challenge since it involved Saren who while one of my main six, had all his skill points spent on healing, and Karen who I considered kind of broken. Winning this battle was the single biggest challenge for me in chapter 4. Ramas lent Saren Zeal's sword. Loren lent him Zachary's wedding rings. All the rest of his equipment was already the best money could buy at the shops. Saren's damage output of 360-470 damage per strike was nowhere near what Loren or Ramas would have been capable of in the same situation with all their skill buffs, but still very respectable. I could have pushed his damage output a bit higher, but it would have cost him speed, and that was a trade-off I decided not to make at the time.
P_Tigras
Jan 06, 2013
Here is a list of my issues with Karen:
First some observations:
[list]
1) She can't use heavy bows/crossbows.
2) She can use spears instead.
3) Heavy bows/crossbows and spears do equivalent damage.
4) Whirlwind and Leg Break are dependent on ranged damage while Strike Through is dependent on her melee damage.
5) There is a much better variety of heavy bows/crossbows that do decent damage than light/medium bows/crossbows.
[/list]
These are problems because:
[list]
1) Thieves that carry heavy bows/crossbows can still take advantage of shield bonuses while Karen who must carry a spear to do similar damage can not.
2) Karen's Whirlwind and Leg Break powers are crippled by the lack of variety in good light/medium bows/crossbows. For example I have yet to find one that does more than 9 fire damage. On the other heavy hell crossbows that do 22 fire damage are plentiful.
3) Karen's Whirlwind power doesn't do the advertised damage to two of the three targets. Dora's Rain of Arrows currently does more damage to all three targets.
4) Karen's Whirlwind which does ranged damage can not be used on the back row, only the front row. Dora's Rain of Arrows which does ranged damage can be used on either the front row or the back row.
5) Karen's Leg Break power does less damage than Dora's Pinning Shot due to Dora's access to better bows..
6) Karen's Leg Break can not be used on a target in the back row, Dora's Pinning Shot can.
7) Dora's Pinning Shot's paralysis effect is superior to Leg Break's slowed effect giving Dora another win.
7) Karen's Strike Through power which does melee damage can be used to damage one enemy in the back row, BUT has a very long delay of 16. Contrast that with Dora's Rain of Arrows which only has a delay of 6 and can hit all three enemies in the back row.
8 ) Karen's Strike Through also does less damage to fewer enemies than Dora's Rain of Arrows.
9) To use all of Karen's powers most effectively in tough encounters, two of her weapon types need to be regularly swapped out instead of just one. This creates a combat prep headache. No other character needs to go through this for two weapons.
10) Investing in a variety of two very different weapon types is also expensive. There is no need to go through this for any other character.
[/list]
I know we've discussed some of these and you've promised to address those, but I felt you should see the entire list of what I'm talking about when I say that Karen doesn't currently measure up. Each of the other three thieves has a distinct niche at which they excel, but Karen doesn't really succeed at anything other than being a second-rate Dora.
You've committed to addressing (3). (2), (5), (9) and (10) can be addressed by making making all three of Karen's Scout attack skills dependent on melee damage instead of ranged damage, which we've already discussed regarding Whirlwind, but it should be applied to Leg Break too. Strike Through should also definitely have its delay reduced from 16 to something more reasonable. I'm not sure what to suggest for (1). The rest I'd probably take a wait and see attitude to see how things shake out, although small tweaks here and there may be appropriate.
Anima_
Jan 06, 2013
4) Whirlwind and Leg Break are dependent on ranged damage while Strike Through is dependent on her melee damage.
Actually, Whirlwind and Leg Break can be used either with a melee or a ranged weapon. If you are in the front row and attack targets in the front row the character will automatically use their melee weapon, unless they have none equipped in which case the ranged weapon is used. If you are in the back row the ranged weapons is preferred.
Some skills like Strike Trough are an exception, they can only be used with a melee or ranged weapon. Using a melee weapon from the back row does come with accuracy penalties though, changing all of Karens skills to the close weapon group will basically force her to be in the front row.
The first problem can't really be fixed for Loren, the equipment system was not designed with a melee/ranged weapon in mind. Instead we had two completely separate weapon setups. I can only promise not to repeat that in the new RPG framework.
Actually I think most of the problem come from the fact that Karen was designed as a thief that can fight in the front row.
P_Tigras
Jan 07, 2013
4) Whirlwind and Leg Break are dependent on ranged damage while Strike Through is dependent on her melee damage.
Actually, Whirlwind and Leg Break can be used either with a melee or a ranged weapon. If you are in the front row and attack targets in the front row the character will automatically use their melee weapon, unless they have none equipped in which case the ranged weapon is used. If you are in the back row the ranged weapons is preferred.
Hmm...very interesting.
Some skills like Strike Trough are an exception, they can only be used with a melee or ranged weapon. Using a melee weapon from the back row does come with accuracy penalties though, changing all of Karens skills to the close weapon group will basically force her to be in the front row.
So in the front row she doesn't have the survivability or damage ability of a fighter, while in the back row she's unable to as effectively target the dangerous, but squishy enemy back row as the other thieves. She doesn't excel at anything.
The first problem can't really be fixed for Loren, the equipment system was not designed with a melee/ranged weapon in mind. Instead we had two completely separate weapon setups. I can only promise not to repeat that in the new RPG framework.
Actually I think most of the problem come from the fact that Karen was designed as a thief that can fight in the front row.
I agree now that you've laid it out. It sounds like she was designed to give the fighters some competition in the front row, so it wouldn't be a bad thing if she could do a better job of that. I'm tempted to therefore suggest that she be allowed to wear heavier armor and use heavier bows (in addition to spears) to make up for her issues. This gives her more survivability in the front row and provides her skills more punch when she's in the back row. She still won't be able to compete with the other thieves in the back row when it comes to taking out squishy back row enemies because of the limitations on her skills, nor will she have the hit points and damage output of fighters, but she'll probably be faster than the fighters and better protected than the other thieves despite not being able to wear a shield if she's carrying a spear. That I believe can be accomplished without messing with the RPG framework.
jack1974
Jan 08, 2013
When I feel my brain can function again properly will check this (still recovering from a very bad flu!).
P_Tigras
Jan 08, 2013
When I feel my brain can function again properly will check this (still recovering from a very bad flu!).
Sounds good. Adjusting Karen so that she'll be more competitive with the other characters for a spot in the combat party is worth some thought.
jack1974
Jan 13, 2013
I think now she can kick some asses
beside the changes I've already posted about in the other thread (Focus Target giving 100-150-200% attack bonus) and fixing Whirlwind to do row damage, now she has also more HP and defense thanks to a trick by Anima. To see the HP change (which I think is the most important in Hard mode) you need to restart from the beginning though
I'm going to upload the new version probably next week when things are more relaxed (now I'm finishing Heileen 3 yuri and don't want to get distracted).
P_Tigras
Jan 13, 2013
I think now she can kick some asses beside the changes I've already posted about in the other thread (Focus Target giving 100-150-200% attack bonus) and fixing Whirlwind to do row damage, now she has also more HP and defense thanks to a trick by Anima. To see the HP change (which I think is the most important in Hard mode) you need to restart from the beginning though I'm going to upload the new version probably next week when things are more relaxed (now I'm finishing Heileen 3 yuri and don't want to get distracted).
Sounds good. So what's the HP/defense trick? Does it require that she wear a particular item? Or is it something more intrinsic to her?
jack1974
Jan 13, 2013
No is something intrinsic to her. A tweak needed so she can be used both as ranged character (pumping up her Skill attribute and using a bow) or as melee (with Spear). Honestly already with the Focus increase was almost fine, but with this HP/defense thing he can also stay in the front line, even if of course isn't strong as a "true" Warrior like Loren or Ramas. If you're interested in trying out before I can post a .zip "preview" with only the .rpyc files changed, so not the full 110mb game
P_Tigras
Jan 13, 2013
No is something intrinsic to her. A tweak needed so she can be used both as ranged character (pumping up her Skill attribute and using a bow) or as melee (with Spear). Honestly already with the Focus increase was almost fine, but with this HP/defense thing he can also stay in the front line, even if of course isn't strong as a "true" Warrior like Loren or Ramas. If you're interested in trying out before I can post a .zip "preview" with only the .rpyc files changed, so not the full 110mb game
Sounds great. I probably won't have time to try it out today however.
jack1974
Jan 13, 2013
No problem since I don't plan to update the live version for a while, there's time
Mariko
Feb 19, 2013
I started reading this thread for the obvious reason, to figure out how to get the most out of the attribute points and talent trees as I haven't been able to figure out how to make some characters effective. Sauzer for example seems completely useless except for what he brings to the table at the end.
This thread was far to long for me to read through all of it and it's probably just as well since much of the earlier pages are based on and older version and as such a bit out of date but I did learn a few things.
One thing is that I never made the connection between skill and speed. I had no idea dumping points in skill made a character faster. If it were called speed instead it would have been obvious but it's not. I always just assumed skill points were good for the ranged classes like Dora and Rei perhaps improving accuracy so their shots wouldn't miss and maybe increasing there chances of hitting vital organs causing their shots to do more damage. I couldn't have been more wrong. lol
The other thing I've noticed is that it seems the people that posted in the few pages that I did read took an entirely different approach than I, opting for more chances to hit rather than bigger hits.
I've taken the latter approach. Just recently I started a new game and early in chapter two, as soon as I had all of (Loren, Elenor, Draco, Myrth, Gando.. erm Apolimesho, Chambara, Dora, Amukiki, Rei, Ramas and Karen) in the group I did tasks grinding them all the way up to level 20.
This got me to the third level of all their best talents and with (Ramas, Amukiki, Loren and Warior-Elenor) I dumped all of there points into strength.
With Dora, Rei and Karen I divided their points as equally as possible between strength and skill.
With Apolimesho, Draco, Myrth and Chambara I dumped all of their points into will.
My goal, instead of trying to get more chances to hit than the enemy, has been to try to make sure the fight doesn't last more than one or two turns and with Apolimesho, Drako and Myrth in the back row it usually doesn't. Between the three of them, with their AOE spells, my front row seldom has to attack at all and when they do. Ramas and Loren's front row aoe attacks don't let the fight last much longer.
Although now that I understand the skill points a bit better I may want to rethink my point distribution.
Any thoughts on how to best spend points to increase damage output would be appreciated. Especially for the odder characters like Sauzer and Trouble.
jack1974
Feb 19, 2013
Both Sauzer and Trouble are Warrior Class, so the damage will be influenced mostly by Strength (since they both can't wield any kind of weapon, that's the only way to increase their damage). Before the best way was to pump Skill value so they would move faster, effectively doing more damage because they could attack twice. Though I never did a real stat comparison to see which way would give best results, even if in the first version the "Speed cheat" was really powerful, now is more balanced but I am not 100% sure... A great thing of the new framework that is being worked on, is that you can do AI vs AI battles so you can know immediately how any change in the rules will impact the game, really useful
deathknight1728
Mar 10, 2013
In this game, which is more powerful Melee or ranged combat? I am not sure if I want to keep my warrior or start over as a thief. Ill play warrior if and only if I always have something to attack. However, if ranged combat can hit guys in the front and back, whats the point of going melee with either class.
Its not as easy to get into as PStronghold as with that your automatically forced to ranged combat.
