About this game

Visual Novel / Simulation game set in a zombie apocalypse setting
pyla88
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Re: About this game

Post by pyla88 » Tue Aug 11, 2015 4:57 pm

I saw that too! Replacing the pronouns or not, though, this really disappointed me when I saw it. It looks like the writers are just going to write a straight (possibly bi?) man who, I'm sure, is white. This whole genderless, invisible thing would be a lot easier if he/they didn't have a daughter. Like, what is she going to address them as? I'm pretty sure implicitly the MC's a man. I got the feeling a few times when playing the beta, that my character was a man like when Caroline talks about wanting a good man to me. Why would she do that to a woman?

Plus, there's Steve. If I'm envisioning my MC as someone who's a woman, gender fluid, or maybe a transman, it's really hard to believe Steve wouldn't make a fuss about it. Since he makes a fuss about eveything. Or if they were POC, given how he treats all the women and Eric, who is one of only two non-white characters despite a blog post that claimed ethnic diversity. Imagine my disappointment as I went down the list. It's probably too much to ask for an addition of hispanic/asian/native american, etc characters or some race-bending but I'd love it if I got the option to play as a woman. Or, barring that, you just present the MC as the man I believe you (whoever wrote this) imagines them as. At least then they'd be a fuller character, imho.

And there are times where I'm so into this and talking to the characters, but I'm knocked out of it like I get the feeling that I'm definitely a man to them or kinda worse, an undefined shape. The more I consider this and replayed the beta, the less I liked this whole genderless business.

I'm sorry this was so jumbled! I really do like this game and would love to play more. It's fun! Buuut the whole genderless thing is a turn off. Also I'm worried this is the wrong place to post this. First time on the forums. (Which, see, this game brought me here.)

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jack1974
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Re: About this game

Post by jack1974 » Tue Aug 11, 2015 5:38 pm

Thanks for the feedback. Yes we've never tried this approach before, so I was curious to see the people's reaction. Of course if most people don't like it (some are OK with it), in future games will be done differently :)

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Exizel
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Re: About this game

Post by Exizel » Tue Aug 11, 2015 7:53 pm

I have to agree with pyla88, you can create a genderless protagonist with a character like steve in the game and can someone really imagine steve in a relationship with the MC and treating a male and a female MC the same way, most people wouldn't treat the 2 the same way...so steve :roll: . I don't understand why he was chosen for the male romance poll.

The genderless and silent protagonist doesn't really work for me, "the protagonist is you" concept is a illusion and when the illusion is broken...well it hard to get into illusion again.

and it is useless to not give a fix appearance to the MC character when you give him a white hand...

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jack1974
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Re: About this game

Post by jack1974 » Thu Aug 13, 2015 7:48 am

While of course we can't change this now (game should be officially out in September), do you have a suggestion for a better word to use to describe the game, instead of "genderless"? I mean, unless the word is fine and it's just the whole idea/concept that you don't like :)

pyla88
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Re: About this game

Post by pyla88 » Thu Aug 13, 2015 3:23 pm

Well, personally, I don't think he's genderless. I think he's a cisman. But that's just me. (hope that's not rude.)

And about Steve in the romance poll. I was so confused by that too ! But sort of a shallow confusion initially b/c I hadn't played the beta, only saw his ugly face in the cast blog post. Now I'd see him more as a rival than a romance. Tho, I'm really curious as to how they'd pull that off.

EDIT: It's also the game format's that the problem. Given the types of characters and interactions involved, the subject of gender's unavoidable. Either people are conservative and want to label or they're liberal and want to know stuff like proper pronouns, etc. Maybe something like a failbetter game, that's story-centric but the vagueness of "genderless" is more plausible given the world state and that vague individuals aren't rare. So yeah, format and setting are incompatible, imho.

P_Tigras
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Re: About this game

Post by P_Tigras » Sun Aug 16, 2015 2:20 am

ryocchi wrote:I'm also not so hot on the genderless approach, sometimes if you're not super careful it turns impersonal instead of inclusive, so it could backfire that in the end instead of including people of every gender it could alienate a big chunk of the audience and making it hard for the player to connect with the mc.
I feel the same way. Having played some games put out by a different publisher where the only differences between the BxG, GxB, GxG & BxB versions were the pronouns assigned to the characters, I found the romances bland and unappealing as a result. In addition, there were a few immersion-breaking moments when the writers wrote from a perspective that while fine for some versions came across in others as rather odd or off-putting.
Last edited by P_Tigras on Tue Aug 18, 2015 12:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Exizel
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Re: About this game

Post by Exizel » Tue Aug 18, 2015 12:15 am

jack1974 wrote:While of course we can't change this now (game should be officially out in September), do you have a suggestion for a better word to use to describe the game, instead of "genderless"? I mean, unless the word is fine and it's just the whole idea/concept that you don't like :)
it's the idea, I'm not a fan of genderless protagonist, even less of genderless romance option and I'm not really fond of herosexual characters either.

Gender and sexuality are a big part of a character's identity and making them null kill the characters and like P_tigras said the romances are
P_Tigras wrote:bland and unappealing as a result. In addition, there were a few immersion-breaking moments when the writers wrote from a perspective that while fine for the some versions came across in others as rather odd or off-putting.
It doesn't mean that a game with a genderless protagonist can't be good, for exemple outside of the romance and bad blood SOTW has a genderless protagonist and character, the twins became a little bland because of this but I don't remember any immersion-breaking moments.

The only gender and sexuality problem I have seen in the game was even about the twins but Riley and his "I'm gay but I want to have sex with Krimm because she was the manliest of all the arena's slave" :roll: , I suppose the arena scenes where he hit on her was written when Riley was bi and wasn't changed when it was decide he was going to be gay so the writer created a excuse in his romance arc.

so while I can enjoy a game with a genderless if there is no immersion-breaking moment in the game and I'm not a fan of the concept.

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Re: About this game

Post by P_Tigras » Tue Aug 18, 2015 1:03 am

Exizel wrote:
jack1974 wrote:While of course we can't change this now (game should be officially out in September), do you have a suggestion for a better word to use to describe the game, instead of "genderless"? I mean, unless the word is fine and it's just the whole idea/concept that you don't like :)
it's the idea, I'm not a fan of genderless protagonist, even less of genderless romance option and I'm not really fond of herosexual characters either.

Gender and sexuality are a big part of a character's identity and making them null kill the characters and like P_tigras said the romances are
P_Tigras wrote:bland and unappealing as a result. In addition, there were a few immersion-breaking moments when the writers wrote from a perspective that while fine for the some versions came across in others as rather odd or off-putting.
It doesn't mean that a game with a genderless protagonist can't be good, for exemple outside of the romance and bad blood SOTW has a genderless protagonist and character, the twins became a little bland because of this but I don't remember any immersion-breaking moments.
I wasn't speaking of any existing Winter Wolves games when I was talking about immersion-breaking. The games I was thinking about took the genderless (gender-flexible is probably a better term since they're not actually genderless) thing even farther. Not only was the protagonist gender-flexible, but so too were the romance interests. The romance dialogues were identical except for the flipped gender pronouns. In one of the immersion-breaking scenes, I very strongly suspect that the primary author of that game wrote them from a GxB perspective, and simply didn't give sufficient consideration to how some scenes would come across if the protagonist wasn't female and the love interest wasn't male once the pronouns were flipped.

I agree that gender and sexuality are a big part of a character's identity and I consider simply flipping gender pronouns while leaving everything else the same, as that other game designer did, to be a lazy way of attempting to be more inclusive.
Last edited by P_Tigras on Tue Aug 18, 2015 2:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Exizel
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Re: About this game

Post by Exizel » Tue Aug 18, 2015 2:09 am

I wasn't speaking about WW'sgame but the concept in general, I just use SOTW as an exemple.

When I read your post I thought that you were talking about the choice of games because most of them does the genderless protagonist and love interest (who all are herosexual) thing.

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Re: About this game

Post by P_Tigras » Tue Aug 18, 2015 3:13 am

Yup, you nailed it. I was speaking of Choice of Games. In some of their newer games they even randomize the sexes of the romanceable NPC's without changing any of their dialogues. I find that rather annoying.

At least the protagonists and NPC's in SOTW all have distinct sexes. They don't change sexes based on your sexual preferences or a random number generator in order to be more "inclusive".

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