Why you didn't buy PSCD?

A VN/CCG hybrid game currently in development
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Why you didn't buy PSCD ?

I don't like art style
54
59%
I don't like the card gameplay
12
13%
I don't like the sci-fi setting
6
7%
I don't like the writing
8
9%
other (please specify)
12
13%
 
Total votes: 92

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Pace675
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Re: Why you didn't buy PSCD?

Post by Pace675 » Sat Mar 12, 2016 7:02 pm

Katicflis wrote:I say this as a fan of Dennis art and I am a bit irked by all the people saying they 'can't handle PSCD's art' even though I'd honestly place it just beneath Loren. But people love their manga and out of all the artists you hired, Loren-artist was the best at that.
Huh what? I like all art styles, I just really do not like Dennis' style. It is just that simple. Simply put his character expressions are cringe worth at best. Seriously if a person facial expression were like that in real life you would probably say, 'Are you alright brah?' It has been noted and commented by others, the face proportions are off too much to be 'life like' but are close enough to put people on edge due to the 'uncanny valley' feel.

With VNs (I have to disagree with you here Jack) VNs do not HAVE to use magna style art to be successful, but the art MUST match the story you are trying to tell to be successful. Take Cinders for example:

Image

It is a dark and somewhat more grittier telling of the Cinderella story (more in line with the original) and the art work in conjunction with the story not overpowering it, adding another layer to the story itself.

Let me say this, would I buy Dennis' art; YES I would, but not how it is currently presented in the current games. But I would be happy to commission him though.
1> His realism comes off as fake (See other painted realist that have been shown on these forums and compare).
2> Proportions are off

If you want to know how I would use Dennis' work in a VN format it is simple, set in a sci-fi setting, where the majority of the cast including the PC are android human facsimiles and you can use the artist's natural inclinations for the betterment of the story. There you can use the unease to enhance the story not detract from it.

I agree Loren's artist was not the best I still like the original of PS better and there are a couple others I would place above Lorens but that is another debate :p. (I do absolute love Loren's art tho! Jul just ROWR)

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jack1974
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Re: Why you didn't buy PSCD?

Post by jack1974 » Sat Mar 12, 2016 7:19 pm

Yes but the Moacube example is not useful. They made the story tailored to the artist. They live in same town. If I was living 5km away from the artists or writers... let's say my real-life spiked whip would work wonders and they wouldn't take 3 years to make a game or write a story :lol:
Jokes apart, if I could brainstorm with them or was living so close, and most importantly, could speak same language, it would be a gazillion time easier to do everything, including planning the right game for right writer/artist/whatever.
Working over internet is cool because lets me do games with people all around the world, but it would be for sure easier in other conditions :)

Overall the main reason for some mistakes is that in past months was overworking myself, doing too many things at once, so I couldn't manage the stuff properly (in some cases I even asked the writers to help me since I couldn't make it!). I think after the current batch of games is done things should be better since I found a good group of writers who are reliable, and several artist I can use.

Dankovsky
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Re: Why you didn't buy PSCD?

Post by Dankovsky » Sat Mar 12, 2016 7:22 pm

Cinders art IS kind of pretty, but it's still not nearly as appealing to general audience as usual manga cartoony girls. It is REALLY hard to make realistic art visually appealing. I gladly played and enjoyed all of Cinders, but I still cringed at some of the characters and their facial expressions, and they still failed to capture the general audience interest. They have even bigger problem selling recently released Solstice now, and I also believe the main issue is visually unappealing characters.

Actually, Jack, since you seem to really like asking people's opinion (which is nice): I have an idea. Why don't you create a thread with screenshots from your every game, and ask people to vote which visual style they like best/most likely to buy? That should give you an idea for further art direction.
Even better if you could promote it on other forums so you would get more unbiased opinions.

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jack1974
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Re: Why you didn't buy PSCD?

Post by jack1974 » Sat Mar 12, 2016 7:24 pm

Hah, I did that already in a poll 3 years ago!
viewtopic.php?f=33&t=2841
damn I should have remembered about it... most voted manga :lol:

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Franka
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Re: Why you didn't buy PSCD?

Post by Franka » Sat Mar 12, 2016 8:02 pm

I am absolutely baffled by how much importance people place on art styles being so specifically tailored to their personal tastes, sometimes to the extreme point that they will dismiss something completely, purely because a couple of lines don't agree with them. I mean, it's fair enough, everybody's free to form their own opinions and act on them, I'm just not able to comprehend that artwork matters more than writing, setting and gameplay. However, I see from the voting that it absolutely does, so clearly there's something important to take away from all this.

I wonder, have I just become old? Maybe I've simply forgotten that not everyone grew up with much simpler games, where characters were blocks that you needed a healthy imagination to approximate to anything human.

This was once my favorite game.

Image

Dankovsky
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Re: Why you didn't buy PSCD?

Post by Dankovsky » Sat Mar 12, 2016 8:09 pm

Well, it's not just about choosing between "manga/comic/painted", it's much more nuanced still. I think it's all about finding the right artist that can make the characters look just right, so that the viewer will instantly like them.

That said, here is my own personal rating of "visual appeal" based on your PC games (their screenshots, to be precise):
  • Dead but Alive: sorry, the characters are ugly as hell
    Love&Order: a little generic and they all look very much alike, but still pretty cute
    Vera Blanc: this doesn't look very high quality to me, although it could work in a printed comic book
    Winter in Fairbrook: pretty cute for an otome game
    Heileen: this artist actually has some personal style, I think he made some good work. This is a pretty mixed western/manga style. not perfect, but nice.
    Bionic Heart: it's not perfect, but it's still a unique mixed style. is it the same artist as heileen?
    Spirited Heart: the art does look a little on the cheap side, and it was probably made by different artists so it doesn't mix right, but it could work
    Always Remember Me: this is probably as closest to perfect otome art as you could get. Give this guy some money and never let go.
    Planet Stronghold: Actually, damn. Who is this artist? This is a PERFECT mixed style. This lady here is instant love. Great proportions, perfect lineart and cell shading. Hire this guy. If you won't, I will.
    Loren: I'm not that big a fan of this style as other guys here, but I admit it looks pretty alright in a western way.
    Bionic Heart 2: I personally kind of like it, but I can see why it might not work with everyone
    Nicole: I'll give it 8,5 on an otome scale
    Roommates: the style works, but every character apart from the main girl does not look very likeable
    SOTW: it does look just a bit amateurish, but personally I still like it.
    PSCD: well, you heard it all already. this fails to look realistic and looks silly instead.
Overall I have to say most of the artists that try to go for a western/mixed style tend to look a little amateurish.
The most professional looking art tends to be from more pure manga-style artists: Roommates, Nicole, Always Remember Me, Flower Shop, Love & Order. Oh and I still think original Planet Stronghold artist is a gem. What's his name?

@Franka it depends on the game a lot. There is no way around making likeable character sprites if you're making a visual novel. And yes, the general consumer logic's first question is "Do I like what I see?". If the answer is "Not really", no amount of promised good gameplay or awesome story will make them buy the game (exceptions rarely apply).

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jack1974
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Re: Why you didn't buy PSCD?

Post by jack1974 » Sat Mar 12, 2016 8:29 pm

Franka wrote:I am absolutely baffled by how much importance people place on art styles being so specifically tailored to their personal tastes, sometimes to the extreme point that they will dismiss something completely, purely because a couple of lines don't agree with them. I mean, it's fair enough, everybody's free to form their own opinions and act on them, I'm just not able to comprehend that artwork matters more than writing, setting and gameplay. However, I see from the voting that it absolutely does, so clearly there's something important to take away from all this.
Haha yes sometimes I laugh reading how important is a small detail for someone. But I am not considering that of course. I am looking at the overall poll results and also interesting info like that Voltage story. BTW I remember that game! I don't know the name but I remember playing it a lot. I am old too :twisted:

@Dankovsky : yes both Heileen and Bionic Heart 1 are by same artist. That artist is currently working on Love Bites (a new game) :)
Original PS artist is good but extremely slow, she took 3 years to make the art for the sequel... by the point the art was ready, I had already started other games. She is busy with convention and other stuff so it's unlikely I'll do another game with her after PS2.

lanawinst
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Re: Why you didn't buy PSCD?

Post by lanawinst » Sat Mar 12, 2016 8:43 pm

Dankovsky wrote:It is REALLY hard to make realistic art visually appealing.Overall I have to say most of the artists that try to go for a western/mixed style tend to look a little amateurish
I could say the same for manga art style, since I personally find that manga arts with its propensity to exaggerate the human (and sometimes environmental) features among other things often lacks the subtleties and nuances that professional western drawings can have, even with the professional and most acclaimed manga artists, so let's agree to disagree there. I really do feel that in the end it boils down to a matter of taste here.
Franka wrote:I am absolutely baffled by how much importance people place on art styles being so specifically tailored to their personal tastes, sometimes to the extreme point that they will dismiss something completely, purely because a couple of lines don't agree with them. I mean, it's fair enough, everybody's free to form their own opinions and act on them, I'm just not able to comprehend that artwork matters more than writing, setting and gameplay. However, I see from the voting that it absolutely does, so clearly there's something important to take away from all this.
I'm as baffled as you. I don't need a game to be made in my favorite art style to buy it, I care so much more about the story, and gameplay. Otherwise I would have bought very few VNs, that's for sure :p And you know the weird thing? This attachement to graphics is not as important for other type of games. Look at how well undertale did! Why does graphics matter little with RPGS but so much with VNS is beyond me, I'll admit.

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jack1974
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Re: Why you didn't buy PSCD?

Post by jack1974 » Sat Mar 12, 2016 8:45 pm

lanawinst wrote:Look at how well undertale did! Why does graphics matter little with RPGS but so much with VNS is beyond me, I'll admit.
I think is correct to say "romance VN" (or dating sim), not VN in general. I think because the characters must look sexy/attractive/etc. Also, majority of players are female, so for them maybe manga works better (cuter, etc).

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Pace675
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Re: Why you didn't buy PSCD?

Post by Pace675 » Sat Mar 12, 2016 8:48 pm

Franka wrote:I'm just not able to comprehend that artwork matters more than writing, setting and gameplay. However, I see from the voting that it absolutely does, so clearly there's something important to take away from all this.
I still buy and play CYOA games, no art whatsoever and I am happy with them. They tell a great story and actions have consequences so pure win! But when you veer off the path a little to VN and add art to the story it should not pull away from your imagination, but add to it. You loose out in choices with a VN due to its inherent linear nature and narrative, but gain a mental image of what the creator is trying to present with visual aids.
I wonder, have I just become old? Maybe I've simply forgotten that not everyone grew up with much simpler games, where characters were blocks that you needed a healthy imagination to approximate to anything human.
I have play the orginal CONSOLE version of pong. Yes there was only one game with two paddle a console and an RF switch you hooked up back to your old analog TV, it was black and white, no plot no story, just pong. It was brilliant, then came Atari 2600, ColecoVision , and a plethora of first gen consoles that brought in the pixelated revolution of fun! Anyone remember Zork? XD A simple text based adventure that ate away the hours.

But as with everything, time progresses and so does expectations, it is just a fact. If a game has art in it nowadays, I have to like it, or I am not buying it; it is just that simple. I put my money where my mouth is, I like it I buy it, just that simple.
This was once my favorite game.
How about ET? XD
Image

But nowadays even the rose tinted glasses BG2 is about as far as I am willing to go back now. Even with fond memories sometimes it is best to move forward and cherish those days, VR is here so....You ready for the next generation?

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