Nicole 0.8.1 (demo preview)

[jack1974]

Thanks for the explanation. I knew a bit how that works, but because how was written/coded the game, and at this late stage, would be impossible to change how it plays now.
Changing the job outcome based on the skill wouldn't be a problem though. But there's something that doesn't feel right, if as you said the job relies only on the stat, as you go on the income should become much bigger, or at the beginning should be very hard to make any revenues (depending how course how big is the impact in the job result).
I used that system in Spirited Heart but I didn't think it was good, because it would lead to frustration in the beginning (when the skill was low) and too fast progression in the end (when the skill was high). Unless I'm missing something ?

[Nightsnow]

There is also the problem with 'how long' the in games takes place. I don't know how important money is to Nicole, but let's say that is is somewhat important, then getting a guranteed bad income at the start would be very frustrating if for example the time spann is 'only' in game one month, whereas in Spirit Heart is was around 10 years giving us ample time to build up the stats.

As I have understood it for Nicole jobs are primaraly stats booster and money booster secondly, in which case having the outcome depending on the stats we are suppossed to be boosting, would be irritating. (Espically since it seems we need fairly high stats to clear the game.)

Anyway there is no one way to do things, stats are used in many different way by different games, also dating sims, the only thing I demand is that the way stats work are documented so I have an idea of how to play the game.

[jack1974]

Yes I think reader refers how stats works in japanese dating sims, but I always had them work a bit differently in my games, except Spirited Heart.
The increase you get will be higher than in the demo though, don't worry I'm tweaking things, the demo was just to show the characters personalities and the interface but I'm already changing many things like the stats/money you get after each job.

[Jackrabbit]

I think it depends if it's more of dating sim or a life sim i.e. is the focus the game mechanics or the story?

Life sims can be fun to play, because the challenge of balancing your stats. The goal is to achieve certain stats to unlock more gameplay content, and that means the story is secondary, there only to serve as a visible landmark. Think of the plot in Pokemon games.
For example, Tokimeki Memorial is such a stat raising game, that has a little events scattered thorough, but the 'plot' is very thin.

Dating sims, by definition, focus more on the relationship, so the story is the main goal and the 'reward' for raising your stat. While I agree it's important to have 'rewards' through the game and not just at the end (thus my suggestions of events related to your stats), the focus is more on the story, which is why Nicole (presumably) have more story than, say, Spirited Heart.
For example, the otome game Dandelion has stats, but they have little effect and the game is plot-dependent.

Nicole seems, to me, to be about the story, with the stats as a mechanic to navigate it (instead of choices, like in a VN). It's not what I would classify as a stat-raising sim, because the stats are not the goal, only the tool.

[reader]

Thanks for the explanation. I knew a bit how that works, but because how was written/coded the game, and at this late stage, would be impossible to change how it plays now.

Imagined that might be the case but the demo only recently came out so couldn't provide feedback prior to now. My major issue with the demo is that you have a stat building game but the stats, and the choices that what into these stats, make zero difference in playing the game. As a player, and even more so as a game maker, I make sure that player choices have a meaningful impact on what occurs in the game. This demo does not do so. The demo could just as easily be done as a book or movie as the player has no effect on what happens in the demo. So I'm making all of these choices every day and get to the end of the demo only to discover not a single choice made any difference. Huge let down in my book. Now perhaps the full version will allow for all of these stat building choices to be relevant. But if the only difference is the ending, than using a stat building genre really wasn't a good fit for the type of game you've made. It's really a better fit for a visual novel as you have the stats playing such a small role in the game. A stat building game, regardless whether it be a dating sim or not, drives the entire game. Effecting in game choices and all the possible side events as well.

Changing the job outcome based on the skill wouldn't be a problem though. But there's something that doesn't feel right, if as you said the job relies only on the stat, as you go on the income should become much bigger, or at the beginning should be very hard to make any revenues (depending how course how big is the impact in the job result).
I used that system in Spirited Heart but I didn't think it was good, because it would lead to frustration in the beginning (when the skill was low) and too fast progression in the end (when the skill was high). Unless I'm missing something ?

Basing job pay/performance on just mood & energy is only part of the equation. Even the most basic job requires at least some amount of skill and experience. How much pay is needed in a game depends on what type of costs are involved in the game. For example, your always remember me game had the girl working at an ice cream shop for very little money. Yet it was a good balance based on what she needed to buy within the game. Of course there isn't a huge say intelligence factor going into working at an ice cream shop. But say being a tutor does require intelligence of the subject matter and thus requiring a certain skill.

Per your demo, there isn't at least currently a huge need for cash. As nicole is the typical college student, ie without much money, she's not looking to fund a shopping spree at the mall here. So small payments for part time jobs is all she would need. Depending on the length of the game, you could always cap the amount of earnings one could earn in a work shift. A business is only going to be willing to pay a certain range for any function. As nicole is only doing part time work, there really wouldn't be a very high end to the payment scale for such positions.

In sum, this is of course your game. But as you have demonstrated an interest and willingness to adjust your games based on player feedback, I have answered your questions in detail. All of what I have suggested is very doable as I have included all of this in my own game that I think would be helpful for you to try to see what I am referring to. The current demo and your description of the full game ultimately isn't player friendly in that player choices have no effect on the demo in any way. In my mind, this should be a priority for every game and I would suggest implementation of ways to address this major issue of the demo. My two cents as they say.

[reader]

I think it depends if it's more of dating sim or a life sim i.e. is the focus the game mechanics or the story?

Life sims can be fun to play, because the challenge of balancing your stats. The goal is to achieve certain stats to unlock more gameplay content, and that means the story is secondary, there only to serve as a visible landmark. Think of the plot in Pokemon games.
For example, Tokimeki Memorial is such a stat raising game, that has a little events scattered thorough, but the 'plot' is very thin.

Dating sims, by definition, focus more on the relationship, so the story is the main goal and the 'reward' for raising your stat. While I agree it's important to have 'rewards' through the game and not just at the end (thus my suggestions of events related to your stats), the focus is more on the story, which is why Nicole (presumably) have more story than, say, Spirited Heart.
For example, the otome game Dandelion has stats, but they have little effect and the game is plot-dependent.

Nicole seems, to me, to be about the story, with the stats as a mechanic to navigate it (instead of choices, like in a VN). It's not what I would classify as a stat-raising sim, because the stats are not the goal, only the tool.

My issue with the demo is all that you do is make choices to drive your various stats. And not a single one of all of these choices effects what happens in the game in any way. Making every single decision pointless. These stats have been mentioned as determining who you end the game with. But that's pretty small use of such a large number of stat building work every single day. There should at least be some in game events that are effected by the stats that the player has.

[Jackrabbit]

My issue with the demo is all that you do is make choices to drive your various stats. And not a single one of all of these choices effects what happens in the game in any way. Making every single decision pointless. These stats have been mentioned as determining who you end the game with. But that's pretty small use of such a large number of stat building work every single day. There should at least be some in game events that are effected by the stats that the player has.

Yes, I think there should be alternating events based on stats, on not just relationship score, to make the player feel accomplished and guide your progress ('why am I getting feedback from the wrong guy? Maybe I'm raising the wrong stat?'). But again, you should remember the stats are just tools, meant to help you 'get' the romance. The daily stat builds gives a sort of a time frame, making the player feel how time pass as they manage their time. But ultimately, the reason to play is because the next day will include more story - the stats are there to 'pass the time', so to speak.

Some people complain visual novels go by too fast, because the lack of gameplay, so the use of some secondly game mechanic (a puzzle, a battle, or stat raising) helps pace the game and keeps the player motivated and involved, rather than a passive onlooker. But to expect the second mechanism to radically alter the game, is to forget what game you're playing. It's like lamenting the scarcity of story choices in Puzzle Quest.

[jack1974]

I see, well things that could be doable are:
- change the job result (money earned) based on energy+morale+related skill, within a range as you said
- have Nicole buy gifts for the various characters. That could be possible without adding much extra content, the real problem is time, since the game is already late by 3 months on the planned release date
- as for events related to the stat, beside getting the ending with a specific character, I can't think about another use... can you make me an example of an event related to the skill ? you mean job-related events (like, one day in the lab something explodes and you can use your skill to fix it, bla bla bla? that is possible) or something else?

this kind of things can be added easily - is just that unfortunately the time is running out if I could write the games myself without the need of a writer for every little detail, I would have added them already...

[Jackrabbit]

Events could be anything! They could be a short scene with a character mentioning how fired up Nicole looked lately (zeal > 60), or a fight breaks in class and Nicole breaks it up because everyone likes her (amity > 75), etc'. I love those little nods,recognizing that things change, that the stat raise is 'real' as far as Nicole's character is concerned, and isn't completly meta.

After all, if you made Nicole study all year, she should be able to preform better in class than if you made her go dancing all night.

[jack1974]

OK I'll try to add those things, if I don't make in time for the otome version / first release, will add it later as I make the yuri one (since gameplay is shared, will be updated also in the otome version later).