Sneak Preview #18 – Spies Like Us

A steampunk RPG
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Sylrissa
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Re: Sneak Preview #18 – Spies Like Us

Post by Sylrissa » Sun Jul 21, 2013 6:46 pm

ValHallen wrote:
Sylrissa wrote:
ValHallen wrote:
So there is going to be less hetero romance than homo?
There will be 4 romances for both Anna and Arthur so it's equal actually.
Thats not what I asked, there is 2 hetero option and 3 homo in the chart, so its not really equal
Im not complaining, just wanted to know
So for example if Anna romances a Bisexual man, that is a homo romance according to you?,

There is two men and two women romanceable for both player characters, hence equal as I said to you before.

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ValHallen
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Re: Sneak Preview #18 – Spies Like Us

Post by ValHallen » Sun Jul 21, 2013 6:56 pm

Sylrissa wrote:
ValHallen wrote:
Sylrissa wrote:
There will be 4 romances for both Anna and Arthur so it's equal actually.
Thats not what I asked, there is 2 hetero option and 3 homo in the chart, so its not really equal
Im not complaining, just wanted to know
So for example if Anna romances a Bisexual man, that is a homo romance according to you?,

There is two men and two women romanceable for both player characters, hence equal as I said to you before.
There is 3 woman and 2 man for Anna and 3 man and 2 woman for Arthur

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jack1974
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Re: Sneak Preview #18 – Spies Like Us

Post by jack1974 » Sun Jul 21, 2013 6:58 pm

Anyway, please wait before discussing the romances since that graph wasn't updated (I think I posted an older one by mistake), so wait the "official one" by Fen :) it won't be completely different but for sure there will be some differences!

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ChaosMorning
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Re: Sneak Preview #18 – Spies Like Us

Post by ChaosMorning » Sun Jul 21, 2013 7:05 pm

Man, I was out of the house and missed the chance to be misinformed (and to see more characters, apparently).

Oh well. I can't wait a bit more...

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Re: Sneak Preview #18 – Spies Like Us

Post by FenCayne » Sun Jul 21, 2013 9:03 pm

OK, just to open this up for discussion and allow everyone to voice their disappointment about character X not being available for romancing by protagonist A :) , this is the current party character list with nationality/ethnicity and sexual orientation:

Christina - F - Welsh - Latent Bi (Character identifies as heterosexual but can be 'seduced' by a persistent and sincere Ann)
Neville - M - Welsh - Latent Bi (Character identifies as heterosexual but can be 'seduced' by a persistent and sincere Arthur)
Roger Steel - M - Irish - Bi
Svetlana Ruskaya - F - Russian - Bi
Yu Mei Ling - F - Chinese - Straight
Hamilton Ruff - M - American - Straight
Abhay - M - Kashmiri - Gay
Anya - F - Kashmiri - Lesbian

Maelora
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Re: Sneak Preview #18 – Spies Like Us

Post by Maelora » Sun Jul 21, 2013 9:34 pm

>I've thought about this a lot and as has been mentioned earlier in the thread, there's a real risk of people taking the personality of each character and assuming I'm stereotyping an entire nationality or ethnicity. This is certainly not the case; on the other hand, I do want to create memorable characters whom are not rendered thoroughly anodyne by political correctness. I can't stress this enough ... all the characters in Roger Steel represent no one but themselves. They are obviously products of their cultures (as imaginatively, I hope, rendered by yours truly), and carry with them some of the assumptions and biases of their upbringings, but at the end of the day they stand for nothing and no one but themselves.

***APPLAUDS!!!***

Thank you, Fen, thank you so much!

Don't worry about Political Correctness, just write the characters as you think they would be!

I love the idea of gay, tough Kashmiri twins! That's just so amazing!!!!

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Re: Sneak Preview #18 – Spies Like Us

Post by Maelora » Sun Jul 21, 2013 9:37 pm

>Christina - F - Welsh - Latent Bi (Character identifies as heterosexual but can be 'seduced' by a persistent and sincere Ann)
Neville - M - Welsh - Latent Bi (Character identifies as heterosexual but can be 'seduced' by a persistent and sincere Arthur)
Roger Steel - M - Irish - Bi
Svetlana Ruskaya - F - Russian - Bi
Yu Mei Ling - F - Chinese - Straight
Hamilton Ruff - M - American - Straight
Abhay - M - Kashmiri - Gay
Anya - F - Kashmiri - Lesbian

***HUGE FANGIRL SQUEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!***

I'm Welsh!!! You see English and Irish and Scots characters in games, but hardly EVER see Welsh characters! Thank you!!!!

YAY!!!! for Svetlana and Roger himself being Bi!

REALLY love the idea that you can 'turn' two of the characters with sincere persistence!

I am gonna **LOVE*** this game!

Steampunk and gay romance all in one game... *swoons!*

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ChaosMorning
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Re: Sneak Preview #18 – Spies Like Us

Post by ChaosMorning » Sun Jul 21, 2013 10:04 pm

FenCayne wrote:Christina - F - Welsh - Latent Bi (Character identifies as heterosexual but can be 'seduced' by a persistent and sincere Ann)
Neville - M - Welsh - Latent Bi (Character identifies as heterosexual but can be 'seduced' by a persistent and sincere Arthur)
While I am glad these characters now are open to more than one gender identity (someone was kind enough to show me the original chart), I have a slight problem.*
REALLY love the idea that you can 'turn' two of the characters with sincere persistence!
You see, there's a problem here. Queer identified people are often subject to a vicious myth that they are constantly trying to 'convert' straight people into their 'lifestyles,' and the idea of 'seducing' or 'persuading' them to be 'bisexual' feeds into another stereotype that bisexual people have been 'corrupted' from their 'natural state' by the influencing of other people.

There are an infinite number of other ways of going about a similar story (of a presumed heterosexual person realizing they harbor feelings for someone of a similar or same gender identity) without falling into such tried, tired (and untrue) tropes - for example while I am not a huge fan of the 'Only if its You' idea, it can have some truth in it, without falling into the uncomfortable idea of seducing/'sincerely' badgering someone into 'turning.'
Don't worry about Political Correctness, just write the characters as you think they would be!
This is also a slight problem.

While it is certainly true that people of a creative mindset should not sway their original intentions and form fit what others want, when handling delicate matters such as race, gender identity and sexual orientation minorities all of these being groups that have faced persecution and discrimination and while I absolutely applaud the Roger Steel writer and Winterwolves for being so inclusive, it is really best to consider the many factors that are at play, lest one end up insulting or inadvertently discriminating against another group.

Personally I believe that FenCayne is doing their best to be 'politically correct' (it's not a bad thing people!) and make the story and its characters really dynamic and without acting as stereotypes!

Now, that said...
I am gonna **LOVE*** this game!

Steampunk and gay romance all in one game... *swoons!*
Damn, yes it is going to be a sweet game!

*Please note that I mean no offence to anyone involved in this conversation, be it subject matter or quotes I reference.

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Re: Sneak Preview #18 – Spies Like Us

Post by P_Tigras » Sun Jul 21, 2013 11:50 pm

ChaosMorning wrote: You see, there's a problem here. Queer identified people are often subject to a vicious myth that they are constantly trying to 'convert' straight people into their 'lifestyles,' and the idea of 'seducing' or 'persuading' them to be 'bisexual' feeds into another stereotype that bisexual people have been 'corrupted' from their 'natural state' by the influencing of other people.
I don't believe FenCayne ever used the word "Convert". Furthermore, in a homophobic society, it seems perfectly reasonable that a significant percentage of straights are in reality bi's who aren't fully in touch with themselves given how they've been raised. I therefore don't think it unreasonable that a significant amount of effort from the right person would be required before they'd seriously consider such a relationship.

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ChaosMorning
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Re: Sneak Preview #18 – Spies Like Us

Post by ChaosMorning » Mon Jul 22, 2013 3:51 am

P_Tigras wrote:
ChaosMorning wrote: You see, there's a problem here. Queer identified people are often subject to a vicious myth that they are constantly trying to 'convert' straight people into their 'lifestyles,' and the idea of 'seducing' or 'persuading' them to be 'bisexual' feeds into another stereotype that bisexual people have been 'corrupted' from their 'natural state' by the influencing of other people.
I don't believe FenCayne ever used the word "Convert". Furthermore, in a homophobic society, it seems perfectly reasonable that a significant percentage of straights are in reality bi's who aren't fully in touch with themselves given how they've been raised. I therefore don't think it unreasonable that a significant amount of effort from the right person would be required before they'd seriously consider such a relationship.
I did not say that FenCayne used the word convert, nor did I mean to imply that he said convert, it is merely synonymous with the idea of someone 'seducing a straight person.' It is more than possible that FenCayne has no intention of bring these subplots in such a direction and that my interpretations of their descriptions could very well be a misunderstanding driven by the unfortunate connotations the words used in the description had.

I do concede that many people who believe themselves to be heteosexual could later find out that is untrue - which is exactly what I was getting at here in my previous post:
There are an infinite number of other ways of going about a similar story (of a presumed heterosexual person realizing they harbor feelings for someone of a similar or same gender identity) without falling into such tried, tired (and untrue) tropes
It is completely possible to do a similar story of someone (we're going off of Christina and Neville, for this example) to believe they are straight before realizing that is not true. I was simply saying that I do not like the idea of 'seducing' someone out of their sexuality, even into one that is more latent.

There is an implication behind the idea of persistently trying to seduce someone, with or without sincerity. These implications are not particularly pleasant.

Regardless of how it benefits a story or its themes (exploring discrimination can be done without the use of this particular stereotype, or any character/situation being portrayed with the use of such inaccuracies), I think using stereotypes such as these is a little crass.

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