Sneak Preview #18 – Spies Like Us

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Maelora
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Re: Sneak Preview #18 – Spies Like Us

Post by Maelora » Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:18 pm

ChaosMorning wrote: I do not mean to insinuate that you are referring to me by saying a 'well-meaning straight person,' but if you are I just want to clear that up - I am not straight.
Furthermore I did not mean to intend that 'latent' characters themselves carry such an implication - rather I meant that the way the post I was speaking about had some unclear connotations. Aside from that I certainly agree with the rest of your interpretation of the post :)
Of course, I don't think we're 'arguing' so much as 'debating' here.

And I wasn't having a go at you, CM, honestly.

It's just that in Political Correctness, a lot of people get offended on behalf of others. A lot of white people are offended by 'blaxploitation' films, while a lot of black people enjoyed the kickass characters and black heroes.

I'm sure most people here have trust and faith in Jack and his writers to make awesome games. Personally I'm delighted that we're even having a conversation about not just having gay romances, but a CHOICE in who we romance! I mean, Winter Wolves is a mother-lode for this stuff, it really is! We are literally spoiled for choices! :)

Was a time we were happy to even have one romanceable character - 'you're a lesbian, so you get Liara and Leliana... you're gay, so you don't get ANYBODY!'. Now, we discuss and debate which of the many wonderful choice we want to go for!

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Re: Sneak Preview #18 – Spies Like Us

Post by at-a-glance » Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:21 pm

jack1974 wrote:...and I was thinking that the slavery theme in Loren could have been problematic and in future was better to avoid such topics... :lol:
Jokes apart I think probably Anima misunderstood the point or maybe he would have said it differently after reading your previous post. Anyway, I'll only add that yes, probably some people will be offended by some aspects of the game, exactly like some people were offended by Loren's beginning about the slavery theme... I remember some guys writing comments like "being forced to follow a nazi-bitch like Loren" (seriously! maybe was Greenlight though, so in that case the mental insanity applies :mrgreen:). But you need to read a whole book or watch the whole movie before judging it completely.
I didn't like Loren either, but more because she is a product of her society than any actual hate. Though she had some good things about her--like saving the world and whatnot. :lol: (Still wishing there was a 'leave the Citidel and never have anything to do with it again' ending option. :( )

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Re: Sneak Preview #18 – Spies Like Us

Post by Maelora » Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:25 pm

FenCayne wrote: We know our audience is composed of many people who feel rejected and judged by society as a whole because of their sexuality, and crave some entertainment which speaks to them with more than platitudes, condescension, or judgement. Jack and I are more than happy to have the game beta-tested by people of diverse backgrounds and sexuality to ensure we don't end up “insulting or inadvertently discriminating against another group”, but that doesn't mean we are going to release a game developed by committee which offends no one and probably would interest no one either.
Beautifully put.

This should be sent to every game writer, everywhere.

One example is the UK. Many people of the United Kingdom are unhappy with the generalization as England for the United Kingdom, partly because those not in England want to be referred to individually, and partly because those in England don't want to be thought of as the only people within the United Kingdom.
Hahaha, yeah, we Welsh are used to being forgotten about, most non-British people assume British=English. Although the Scots and Irish do get some honourable mentions.

You don't know how happy I was to play the latest Dragon Quest game and see the little fishing village of Llaffan in all it's Welsh glory! :)

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Re: Sneak Preview #18 – Spies Like Us

Post by Maelora » Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:27 pm

>I didn't like Loren either, but more because she is a product of her society than any actual hate. Though she had some good things about her--like saving the world and whatnot. :lol: (Still wishing there was a 'leave the Citidel and never have anything to do with it again' ending option.

You see, while I know where you're coming from, I LOVED playing Elenor as a total pro-Amazon fanatic who was ferociously dedicated to her 'conqueror' nation. And was honoured to be Karen's sex slave.

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ChaosMorning
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Re: Sneak Preview #18 – Spies Like Us

Post by ChaosMorning » Mon Jul 22, 2013 11:33 pm

Maelora wrote:I'm sure most people here have trust and faith in Jack and his writers to make awesome games. Personally I'm delighted that we're even having a conversation about not just having gay romances, but a CHOICE in who we romance! I mean, Winter Wolves is a mother-lode for this stuff, it really is! We are literally spoiled for choices! :)

Was a time we were happy to even have one romanceable character - 'you're a lesbian, so you get Liara and Leliana... you're gay, so you don't get ANYBODY!'. Now, we discuss and debate which of the many wonderful choice we want to go for!
Oh, I know, it's just great!

Personally I didn't mind the 'Liara option,' if only because I don't like Mark Meer's voice acting as Shepard (now Jethann...), but I do really find it annoying that it took to ME3 for M!Shepard to get any guys he can romance.

But yeah, really have to love Winterwolves for being so great in this aspect!

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Re: Sneak Preview #18 – Spies Like Us

Post by Franka » Tue Jul 23, 2013 6:25 am

In any case, I'm more for wish fulfilment than having to be bound by depressing things like "reality."

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Re: Sneak Preview #18 – Spies Like Us

Post by jack1974 » Tue Jul 23, 2013 7:14 am

Yes and remember that the game takes place in an ALTERNATE REALITY, so while it shares many historical facts with "our world", is still a fiction story! :)

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Re: Sneak Preview #18 – Spies Like Us

Post by Anima_ » Tue Jul 23, 2013 7:35 am

Maelora wrote:
Franka wrote:It's refreshing to have a direct line to the author, but it's also a little worrisome. I hope the creative process does not get hampered by stuff like political correctness or pandering to peoples' pet peeves. Because all in all, I think the tidbits we're given are looking awesome!
Agree with Franka. I have TONS of respect for Anima but I think letting Political Correctness hamper a writer really hurts the games.

Fen is correct in saying that he wants the characters to represent _themselves_, they are not avatars for their entire race or gender or sexuality.

I think that's one of the good things about Winter Wolves being a small game company - they can experiment more, do stuff that Bioware would be terrified to do.

I'm bisexual (I came out in 1988, when it certainly wasn't trendy to do so), and I most certainly don't need well-meaning straight people getting offended on my behalf. I don't see the 'latent' gay characters as being 'those evil gays are stealin' our wimmin!' but two characters making a connection that one wouldn't have initially expected. Fen said you had to be 'sincere' after all. For various reasons, some people don't acknowledge their own sexuality until they meet the right person - I was pretty lucky in that I always knew I was attracted to other girls as well as guys.

Yes, it _could_ be a train-wreck as Anima puts it, but I have faith that the WW will make it awesome. The games have touched on hot-button issues like slavery (Loren, Heileen) and they have been sensitively done. I really don't want the games made anodyne and lowest-common-denominator just because someone somewhere might be offended.

Taking PC to its logical degree, you'll have people saying 'oh, you can't have gay Kashmiri twins because Kashmir is mostly Muslim and that would never be allowed'. But that would deprive us of some great NPCs, because the gay Kashmiri twins sound _freaking awesome_!

I'm sure all WW fans are on the same side really. I'm just voting for a bold and refreshing treatment of the issues, rather than worrying about who 'might' get offended'.
Thanks for the respect. I really admire your courage to come out during that time, (Not that it doesn't require courage today as well). The problem might be that we see different things when we hear the term PC. For me it's a thought-terminating cliché. Honestly, I can't even follow your statement about the Kashmiri twins. How would non discriminatory policies lead to the exclusion of bisexual characters from a muslin country?

I should have been clearer about my point of view in the first place and this is not much of a clarification either. So I apologize if I stepped on any-ones toes and for leaving the debate with that.
Hahaha, yeah, we Welsh are used to being forgotten about, most non-British people assume British=English. Although the Scots and Irish do get some honourable mentions.
It's the same with contemporary Germany, either Berlin or Bavaria. The rest might as well not exist.
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Maelora
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Re: Sneak Preview #18 – Spies Like Us

Post by Maelora » Tue Jul 23, 2013 5:36 pm

Well said, Anima. I don't actually think we're terribly far apart in what we want from WW games, and I enjoy a lively debate as long as it's friendly. WW is such a well-kept secret that it has a small but devoted circle of fans and everyone seems very friendly here!

I suppose I was thinking about PC in a way that stifles the creativity of writers (NOT what you were saying, I understand!). That some people were afraid to do a challenging or thought-provoking plot in case it upset someone.

I understand where you're coming from - in many genres, including films, books, games, comics etc, gay characters were not well-depicted when they were depicted at all. And the idea that we could use our diabolical powers to 'turn' unsuspecting straights was sometimes used to demonise us. That's what I think you meant by saying it could be a 'train wreck'. (the end of the 'Rocky Horror Show' is a parody of this kind of Hollywood thinking, in fact!)

But I'm sure we both trust the writers enough for that not to happen. I didn't see our hero and heroine 'seducing' the poor 'latent straights' (and I'm sorry I used the word 'turn' because it suggests something I didn't mean!)

I just liked the idea of an NPC opening up to someone they may not have initially found attractive. This is pretty much what happens to Kaiden in Mass Effect. And if it's set in a Victorian-type era, there may be social reasons why a NPCs preferences are a little buried.

My point was that PC makes people overly touchy. I think NPCs should be themselves first and foremost. I'd be happy to have a gay character who was a jerk, as long as ALL the gay characters weren't jerks. Gay and ethnic characters should have the same range of archetypes as straight or white characters. It's only a problem if EVERY gay or ethnic character is presented in a bad light.

From what I've seen in WW games, minorities (be they the African characters in Heileen, or the Dark Elves in Loren) are always portrayed well, and hot-button issues like slavery are presented sensitively.

I'm sure we all trust Fen and the other WW writers to make an awesome game, even if they 'push the envelope' a bit.

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Re: Sneak Preview #18 – Spies Like Us

Post by Maelora » Tue Jul 23, 2013 5:41 pm

ChaosMorning wrote: Personally I didn't mind the 'Liara option,' if only because I don't like Mark Meer's voice acting as Shepard (now Jethann...), but I do really find it annoying that it took to ME3 for M!Shepard to get any guys he can romance.
But yeah, really have to love Winterwolves for being so great in this aspect!
Actually, the Kaidan/ManShep romance is a good example of what Fen was trying to get at, I think.

I agree that Kaidan absolutely should have been a male LI in ME1, but there's something cute about how he comes around to admitting his feelings after three games. Initially, he self-identifies as straight, but eventually comes to express the fact he's fallen for another guy.

That's kind of what I think is happening with Ann/Arthur and the Welsh love-interests.

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