Pros and cons of a game

P_Tigras
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Re: Pros and cons of a game

Post by P_Tigras » Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:35 pm

Thee Forsaken One wrote:Some comments on the particular routes. I had limited control over the endings and directions of the routes because I was taking over from a previous writer. All of the routes were largely set out (Although I did my best to modify them as best I could) and the CGs were already done.
Understood.
Originally, the game only had Ruby as the Yuri route. Later on Lynn was added as a Yuri route but (I don't know why) it was also decided that Lynn would be involved with Lair (Or Stan as he used to be called before I changed it). With the CGs already there, I really had no choice but to do my best to fit it in. There is the issue that involving her with Lair does make his route rather weird (Again the endings were determined before I came onto the project) so I just did the best I could.
Yep, I entirely understand. And thanks for filling us in on the game's history.
Thee Forsaken One wrote:
SimonStardust wrote:Overall the issue with the romance paths I have is not that they feel rushed, but rather not thoroughly thought-out.
If Amber said she didn't want Reed then Cosmina would not take Amber.
Yep, I agree. She has a strong established relationship with Reed whom she cares about very deeply, and while she likes and is intrigued by Amber, she barely knows her at that point in the story. This makes getting Cosmina from point A to point B without it ever being presented to Cosmina as a choice between the two an interesting challenge, but not an insurmountable one in my humble opinion, as I've watched real people make very similar transitions when life didn't cooperate with their desires.
Thee Forsaken One wrote:As an aside, I'm personally very against it being possible to get Cosmina without Reed. <snip> Those are my feelings on the matter but I'm aware other people have other ideas.
While we may not see eye to eye on the yuri path, I do very much respect your thoughts and concerns, and I believe my writing will be the better for having heard them.

Troyen
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Re: Pros and cons of a game

Post by Troyen » Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:55 am

Thee Forsaken One wrote:
SimonStardust wrote:Overall the issue with the romance paths I have is not that they feel rushed, but rather not thoroughly thought-out.
Some comments on the particular routes. I had limited control over the endings and directions of the routes because I was taking over from a previous writer. All of the routes were largely set out (Although I did my best to modify them as best I could) and the CGs were already done.
I am worried a bit about some of the other games that have gone through multiple writers. Hopefully there's a storyboard review somewhere making sure everything is in-sync and up to WW's current standards. I know this is happening on Love Bites, but I worry about games like PS2 and Loren 2 that have been in the works for a while.
About Cosmina and Reed, they were always intended as a poly route I know some people (I don't think you've said it), have accused it of being a yuri route that became a poly one. That has never been the case. It was always supposed to be Reed and Cosmina together. Again, like everything else, this was all set out before I joined the project. I really only had influence over the middle of the route and even then there was only so much space to work.
When the characters were introduced on the blog, it was hinted at being poly, but on the forums it was frequently referred to/implied to be "yuri" which set incorrect expectations. Plus, the game page originally counted Cosmina and Reed both as separate female and male romances.

Personally, I'm fine with the route being poly, but calling something "yuri" and including a male doesn't really fit right. The pages are fixed now, so hopefully people won't be caught off-guard again. There's a separate fairness of options argument, but the CGs are already locked down and the artist gone, so not much the writer can do there.
As an aside, I'm personally very against it being possible to get Cosmina without Reed. Cosmina would be unwilling to take Amber without Reed. If Amber said she didn't want Reed then Cosmina would not take Amber. Those are my feelings on the matter but I'm aware other people have other ideas.
Dark+ ending: Amber poisons Reed to get Cosmina to herself (gradually to avoid being caught). I mean, she is a master alchemist. ;)

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jack1974
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Re: Pros and cons of a game

Post by jack1974 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:27 am

Troyen wrote: I am worried a bit about some of the other games that have gone through multiple writers. Hopefully there's a storyboard review somewhere making sure everything is in-sync and up to WW's current standards. I know this is happening on Love Bites, but I worry about games like PS2 and Loren 2 that have been in the works for a while.
Honestly I think they'll be fine. I mean even the original Loren had ALL THE ART DONE, before Aleema joined. The result was fine as we know :mrgreen:
The only game was this one, because I mistakenly gave too much freedom to previous writer who wasn't really someone who plays or know my usual games. For Love Bites for example I have given full autonomy to Miakoda regarding the romances, CGs, etc (of course I reviewed them before approving) and there were zero problems.
When doing Amber extra CGs (because are those who messed up everything, when I did the original storyboard all was OK), sadly I was super busy with SOTW and a huge pile of other stuff so I didn't check carefully what the writer did. I know it seems absurd, I mean you could say "WTF didn't you see that those routes had poly/threesomes!" but SOMEHOW it happened :lol:
It's still my fault of course, but for Loren 2 the endings are all set up "correctly", there's no threesome or anything. They all follow the same basic rules: male/female char, variety of romances, no other characters have relationships between them (there are friendship and such but not relationships) and so on.

But surely having to do the art FIRST is a really bad thing, even if you have already done the storyboard, new ideas can always come up suddnely. In future games I won't do this again. With Loren's artist, if I didn't do it, we would have no other game with his art so I thought was worth it :)

P_Tigras
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Re: Pros and cons of a game

Post by P_Tigras » Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:31 am

To be entirely frank, it was the artwork for Amber and Undead Lily that drew my attention to those games to begin with. I don't know if I'd have been equally interested in them otherwise. And both of those were drawn by the same artist as Loren. So I readily understand why Jack was interested in getting as much art from Loren's artist while he still could.

As for threesome's in Loren, didn't Loren have one with those NPC nymphs in the original? And I bet Jul would be up for a threesome in the sequel, although finding a third willing to risk Jul eating them might not be easy. I could see Chamby up for a bit of bondage involving Jul in restraints however... :girl_devil:

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jack1974
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Re: Pros and cons of a game

Post by jack1974 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:33 am

No Undead Lily is not Loren's artist :) But still very good quality!

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DarkWolf
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Re: Pros and cons of a game

Post by DarkWolf » Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:41 am

Thee Forsaken One wrote:
SimonStardust wrote:About Cosmina and Reed, they were always intended as a poly route I know some people (I don't think you've said it), have accused it of being a yuri route that became a poly one.
I think some people might get this idea because most of the route is development between Amber & Cosa and while it was shown before that Amber & Reed are found of each other it just suddenly jumps from that to them being in love, witch is why I said that it was rushed. The way it is now we get more of an impression that Amber is in love with Cosa who is in love with both Amber and Reed and Amber is just fine with sharing rather then her being in love with both of them witch is suppose to be a case. I thought that there was suppose to be at least one or two more scenes in between first and second scene in Cosmina and Reed route of adult age for it to properly develop from V poly love into a poly love triangle.

True I think this is mainly a problem of restricting writer to write a route in x number of scenes.

PS: And this is not meant as an attack on Cosmina and Reed route as I stated in my first post I actually liked their poly relationship a lot.
Last edited by DarkWolf on Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

P_Tigras
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Re: Pros and cons of a game

Post by P_Tigras » Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:43 am

jack1974 wrote:No Undead Lily is not Loren's artist :) But still very good quality!
o.O My bad then. Hopefully Undead Lily's artist is still available to do more artwork for you in that case.

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jack1974
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Re: Pros and cons of a game

Post by jack1974 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:45 am

Yes I'm still in contact with her, though I'm not sure about her availability. However in future games I definitely want to wait doing the art after the story is either finished or all storyboarded.
Personally I like a lot Queen Of Thieves' artist, and I hope to have him work on more games albeit he's super slow :mrgreen:

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jack1974
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Re: Pros and cons of a game

Post by jack1974 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:47 am

DarkWolf wrote: True I think this is mainly a problem of restricting writer to write a route in x number of scenes.
Aand if I allowed more scenes, other people would complain "why Cosmina/Reed have MORE scenes than the other routes!?". AH, the glamorous life of an indie developer! :lol:

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jack1974
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Re: Pros and cons of a game

Post by jack1974 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:53 am

Jokes apart, as you know I always TRY to do the best for the games, and listen to people, but I don't always manage it. It's due to too many different factors, writers, artists, my own time, etc. It's really not easy. That's why when I finish a game and it's well received like Loren, SOTW, etc I'm really happy (and sometimes I also wonder if I'll manage to repeat that in future! :mrgreen:).

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