future betas

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jack1974
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future betas

Post by jack1974 » Tue Aug 29, 2017 7:09 am

Today while uploading the Cursed Land "beta preview" found out that Dropbox decided to remove the "Public" folder :(
I was using that, combined with some php scripts, to upload the betas and then "grab" them on my servers. This way I could combine incremental upload of Dropbox to reduce the upload a lot.
Normal upload: you have a 100mb file, you need to upload it all (with my connection, takes 45 minutes... WARGH! :evil: )
Incremental upload: you upload only the changed files. If you changed 1mb of those 100, you only upload 1 mb!!! super fast :)

On Steam, you also have incremental updates for users (as you probably know) so even for the user there's the need to download only 1mb.

Now I'm thinking what to do. I really cannot upload every time I update a beta the whole file (like I was doing for SOTW back in 2014... was driving me nuts!). Of course I could use Steam, but I know some people here don't like it. An option might be Itch.io, since it even has an integrated uploader in Ren'Py (very similar to Steam).

If you have any suggestions, I'm all ears!

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Re: future betas

Post by Pace675 » Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:35 am


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Re: future betas

Post by Thee Forsaken One » Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:58 am

I'd probably go with itch.io, personally, short of just doing torrents but obviously the issue with that is reuploading all the time which is a pain as you say.

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jack1974
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Re: future betas

Post by jack1974 » Wed Aug 30, 2017 6:45 am

Pace: the problem is not the HOSTING. That is OK :) It's the uploading process, that should be done incrementally.
Yes Itch.io supports it, though currently the "upload to itchio" button in Ren'Py launcher is broken (seems to work only on Mac but I use a Win computer to develop). Though you can "grab" a file from their control panel at least :P

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Re: future betas

Post by jack1974 » Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:31 am

I tried using the commandline tool for Itch.io and I'm honestly surprised, it's as good as Steam. A big difference though is that for people who still don't want to use their app, you can have a fixed download link. So as player you can either use the incremental download, or download the .zip file.
A problem might be for the installers, but honestly the best thing would be to remove them completely, with the insane codesign bullshit that the various companies are pushing (Apple of course it's pushing it so much that on newer OS, the games won't even start if aren't codesigned lol).

At a certain point I'll need to give up all those codesign idiocy and offer the games the best I can, because I simply don't have 50h in a day so I can't follow everything (and OS companies aren't helping).

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Re: future betas

Post by Troyen » Thu Aug 31, 2017 8:44 am

Do you need to codesign betas though? Afaik there's still an option to allow non-signed applications by turning off gatekeeper, and I assume people risking beta software are a little more technical savvy than the average player (but maybe that's not the case).

That way you'd just need to codesign the release software.

Though I guess it does open you up to a small risk of someone trying to impersonate one of your betas with malware.

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Re: future betas

Post by jack1974 » Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:07 am

I am NEVER going to bother to codesign beta, because they contain all the OSes, I would need to uncompress them, codesign, then zip again. Madness!
Gatekeeper in the newer OS is even worse: they lie to users. They say "the application is corrupted". When it's totally fine, only isn't codesigned. I suspect most of people don't bother. I know other indies had a huge drop of Mac sales after their newer OS. As you can imagine it's not worth doing all this effort for MAYBE the 2% of users... :shock:
Many people gave up completely Mac. My friend Cliff's new game is Windows only for example, and he's not alone doing this.

Also, I am honestly unsure if I'll still do demos. It's starting to be too much for me to handle :oops: also when basically 99% of other indie friends don't bother at all with them, and they're all selling 10 times what I do... :lol:

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Re: future betas

Post by Troyen » Fri Sep 01, 2017 3:25 am

jack1974 wrote:
Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:07 am
I suspect most of people don't bother.
I'm not sure that's true. Simpler users that get everything from the App Store probably don't, but the Mac App Store is garbage. I suspect Steam is a significantly larger portion at least, and I think you need to change from the default to run steam games. Apple, like Microsoft, likes to pretend their store is a bigger deal than it really is. (The story is different on iOS where it's THE only way to get stuff.)
Also, I am honestly unsure if I'll still do demos. It's starting to be too much for me to handle :oops: also when basically 99% of other indie friends don't bother at all with them, and they're all selling 10 times what I do... :lol:
That sucks. I've even stopped buying AAA games that don't provide a demo because so often the gameplay turns out differently than advertised. And I'm glad I did. I played a game at a friend's house that I was on the fence about and it turned out to be worse than I expected, so that was $60 saved. And the current game that occupies my time I ignored for years after it came out until they released a demo, now I've sunk a couple hundred dollars into it. (Of course, it's a subscription-based game, so the incentives are different.)

There are simply too many cheap games out there to take screenshots (or gameplay videos) at face value.

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Re: future betas

Post by jack1974 » Fri Sep 01, 2017 5:55 am

Troyen wrote:
Fri Sep 01, 2017 3:25 am
I'm not sure that's true. Simpler users that get everything from the App Store probably don't, but the Mac App Store is garbage. I suspect Steam is a significantly larger portion at least, and I think you need to change from the default to run steam games. Apple, like Microsoft, likes to pretend their store is a bigger deal than it really is. (The story is different on iOS where it's THE only way to get stuff.)
That's the thing: for Steam or other system that have a "launcher app", once they allow it (Steam.app or whatever) then they don't need to do it anymore! All the games they buy and install runs fine :lol:
So, all the codesign idiocy is effectively HELPING portals like Steam to get more customers, while at same time discouraging direct sellers like me. I know Tom of Moacube had an insane drop of Mac sales (almost to zero) because he couldn't afford/bother to do the codesign stuff. He has 2 games. Imagine me with 20 games... I kept doing it, but I'm human, so I can do only so much.
Definitely it IS a problem. Most people don't bother or aren't tech savy enough.
Troyen wrote:
Fri Sep 01, 2017 3:25 am
That sucks. I've even stopped buying AAA games that don't provide a demo because so often the gameplay turns out differently than advertised. And I'm glad I did. I played a game at a friend's house that I was on the fence about and it turned out to be worse than I expected, so that was $60 saved. And the current game that occupies my time I ignored for years after it came out until they released a demo, now I've sunk a couple hundred dollars into it. (Of course, it's a subscription-based game, so the incentives are different.)

There are simply too many cheap games out there to take screenshots (or gameplay videos) at face value.
I'll try to keep doing demos as much as I can, though no guarantees. At least you can say that you more or less know what to expect when comes to my games (similar to what happens with other indies doing more or less the same kind of games :mrgreen: ).

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Re: future betas

Post by Jaeger » Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:06 pm

jack1974 wrote:
Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:07 am
I am NEVER going to bother to codesign beta, because they contain all the OSes, I would need to uncompress them, codesign, then zip again. Madness!
Gatekeeper in the newer OS is even worse: they lie to users. They say "the application is corrupted". When it's totally fine, only isn't codesigned. I suspect most of people don't bother. I know other indies had a huge drop of Mac sales after their newer OS. As you can imagine it's not worth doing all this effort for MAYBE the 2% of users... :shock:
Many people gave up completely Mac. My friend Cliff's new game is Windows only for example, and he's not alone doing this.

Also, I am honestly unsure if I'll still do demos. It's starting to be too much for me to handle :oops: also when basically 99% of other indie friends don't bother at all with them, and they're all selling 10 times what I do... :lol:
I think demos are good for bringing in new people. Considering your games are typically $15 and over, was a little wary about throwing money before I know what I was getting into. It through the demos did I actually gave it chance and bought a couple of your games.

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