Removing grindy aspect

A fantasy otome RPG about three young thieves with special skills
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jack1974
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Removing grindy aspect

Post by jack1974 » Sun Jun 26, 2016 6:28 am

Some people privately or in forums posted about the grindiness. In the latest update (0.6.6) I added the possibility to do the auto-battles for random encounters to make some XP without fighting, and managing the shop to increase money faster.

I'm open to suggestions for other ideas. The main issue is that while for the catacombs I can tweak and make it challenging (since are fixed room/enemies) for the robbery missions this is basically impossible to do in the normal ways.

The complaint I got so far were at Normal difficulty: maybe in Hard/Nightmare the robberies are still challenging?

One thing I was thinking to do is reduce the amount of XP needed in later levels. So far it looks like this:

Code: Select all

self.xpNeeded = [0,100,250,500,750, 1000,1000,1000,1000,1000, 1250,1250,1250,1250,1250, 1500,1500,1500,1500,1500, 2000,2000,2000,2000,2000, 3000,3000,3000,3000,3000, 5000,5000,5000,5000,5000]
I put a space every 5 levels :) so until level 10 you need 1000 XP, from 10 to 15 you need 1250 XP, and so on.
Since the end of the game should be played at level 25+, I am thinking to lower the amounts overall from level 10 and above (just slightly though), so people should get the XP needed more easily.

Anyway, any feedback is welcome. I think balancing this right will be the hardest thing of this game :o

kadakithis
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Re: Removing grindy aspect

Post by kadakithis » Sun Jun 26, 2016 12:37 pm

I did play it once as the VN, and it did feel super grindy, which is odd since it was the VN mode. Normal mode is just too much, having to do the same thing over and over is a bit much.

Maybe if you could have enemies give a lot more exp?

The issue is the battles are very much like SotW, but SotW had a continuing plot with each battle and you didn't heal at the end of every fight. Often on other things, normal fights are pretty easy but the boss fights are brutal. Even if the boss fights were easy it'd be a bit grindy, but make normal battles easier (read quicker) and give more exp and the need for it to be a grind might be easier?

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jack1974
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Re: Removing grindy aspect

Post by jack1974 » Sun Jun 26, 2016 1:03 pm

kadakithis wrote:I did play it once as the VN, and it did feel super grindy, which is odd since it was the VN mode. Normal mode is just too much, having to do the same thing over and over is a bit much.
That was before last update though, right? since in VN mode you don't need to "earn XP" because the battles are all skipped, the only grindy aspect was the money. But now with the shop auto-run, takes only a few clicks to reach high money amounts.
kadakithis wrote: Maybe if you could have enemies give a lot more exp?

The issue is the battles are very much like SotW, but SotW had a continuing plot with each battle and you didn't heal at the end of every fight. Often on other things, normal fights are pretty easy but the boss fights are brutal. Even if the boss fights were easy it'd be a bit grindy, but make normal battles easier (read quicker) and give more exp and the need for it to be a grind might be easier?
Yes well in practice is what I was thinking to do in the first post: reducing the XP amount needed on each level, that is the same as increasing XP. I might also increase XP though.

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jack1974
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Re: Removing grindy aspect

Post by jack1974 » Sun Jun 26, 2016 1:09 pm

Also, I might try to do on next update this: swap HP for Attack in enemy level up. Which means that higher level enemies have more Attack, instead of HP (so they are more dangerous, but quicker to kill). Perhaps this way the normal battles could be more of a challenge, but still quick to win if you get them right?

Kainin
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Re: Removing grindy aspect

Post by Kainin » Thu Jul 07, 2016 8:05 am

The battles don't seem too hard to me...one thing I often forget (and I believe the people who find the game too grindy do too) are the items such as the paralyze potion or the one that slows or the explosives...seems like this time they will be important and used often as we just have so limited resources...or at least in the beginning.
Another thing that is important and shouldn't be overlooked are the gems - I like to rob merchants for the money first (so I can buy few explosives. more than few small health potions and 1-2 big ones) then do the noble's houses for gems - which I use on the armor and don't sell...

And finally some suggestion for jack1974: if you are worried about the game being too hard - maybe start the game (on easy!) with a spend free skill/existing ability? Like taunt and such important skills. That way people that want to play (on easy!) will not have the option of messing up and not have an option to control the battle...
...to me it sounds like a good fix, but maybe it is too hard to make...?
...in case I didn't express myself right - this is only (already learned ability) for the EASY difficulty....

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jack1974
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Re: Removing grindy aspect

Post by jack1974 » Thu Jul 07, 2016 8:24 am

I let the player pick a skill at beginning of game, but they can choose what they want. I could maybe show some pop-up help, or ask (only for easy mode as you said) if they want to automatically pick a predefined skill.
However I think I expressed myself badly: the robbery part CAN be hard, since aren't required to advance the plot. In kadakithis case, maybe she had bad luck and found a high level target (the targets have varying levels, can be lower or higher than current's party level).
I realized that a game with basically all randomized contents (the robberies) will never be really balanced - the important is that the FIXED contents like the catacombs or the story missions are balanced (easy on easy, hard to win on hard/nightmare mode).
If a random robbery mission is too hard, you can skip and try another one. Instead you can't do the same for the catacombs or main plot missions :)

kadakithis
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Re: Removing grindy aspect

Post by kadakithis » Thu Jul 07, 2016 3:40 pm

Well I mainly mentioned that one fight in the other thread because it seemed odd the guards my level were so much more difficult than the catacombs, but I do keep gems from the households and put them on, but the battles are just a bit too slow and take awhile, especially since most rooms trigger a fight, so it is less that most of them are too difficult to get past so much as they are a bit boring and a tad repetitive.

I love the catacombs and the forward movement of them, but the robberies can feel grindy and frustrating when sometimes you fought 6 battles and didn't get any gold or gems. Since it is the same enemy, when you are tough enough it is all about doing the same thing as a previous fight over and over. I wouldn't mind them being more difficult if they were quicker and/or less of the same enemy.

But later we're getting a meter that will gauge our success that will let us get exp from enemies without having to redo the process? That would solve all of my complaints.

Take all of this with a grain of salt. I prefer fast fights where you curb stomp most enemies but where bosses can curb stomp you. Here the bosses aren't that much more difficult, but everyone is tough and requires time to beat. This is way more strategic and I bet lots of people will enjoy that, so please don't change anything just because my usual style is different..

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jack1974
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Re: Removing grindy aspect

Post by jack1974 » Thu Jul 07, 2016 4:32 pm

Yes, I added the auto-battle for the random fights while moving in the mansions, but some fights like the entrance points can't be "auto-resolved".
kadakithis wrote: But later we're getting a meter that will gauge our success that will let us get exp from enemies without having to redo the process? That would solve all of my complaints.
I don't understand what you mean with this ?

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jack1974
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Re: Removing grindy aspect

Post by jack1974 » Thu Aug 18, 2016 1:28 pm

While waiting for the main menu art I'm doing two things:
1) implementing a unique system for the target houses rooms (with help from a forum user!). In practice now you shouldn't see anymore two room of same type in the same house (except for "empty room" or "treasure room" thing).
2) for fun I added in the mercenary area a room with an Altar to Ibnesti with misplaced runes, so that would work in the opposite way: instead of sacrificing gold for honor, you sacrifice honor (experience points in this case) to get gold:
Image

I think it's a fun idea (it's optional obviously) and could solve the grinding problem if you're willing to sacrifice a bit of experience points for gold :mrgreen:

myoksy
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Re: Removing grindy aspect

Post by myoksy » Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:10 pm

I'm not sure if a gold and XP exchange will solve the grinding issue. In my first play-through (and so far the only, I'm currently in the middle of a second) my primary reason to visit dozens of shocked merchants were gems, a rare and random resource and totally unplanable

gems are _important_ in the later game and finding the correct set for the PCs with different demands can take a long time

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