jack1974 wrote:Thanks for the discussion, is very interesting to me as game creator, so will try to avoid same mistakes in future RPGs
Fixing Karen: I am trying buffing up her Focus Target skill. I increased it so it gives 100%-150%-200% attack bonus. You still waste one turn to set it on a target, but after that, she does a considerable amount of damage, almost as Loren. The Focus Target works also for long range weapons, so she is effective also in backrow with a good bow. The only other thing to fix to make her a good party member (or even a VERY good) now would be more HP or more defense. The way the game was designed, you can't have "custom HP" since is dependent only on class+Strength values. So I'm thinking how to do it. But now she is already more powerful. Will upload a new version to test when I am satisfied by the changes
The Focus Target improvement sounds like it will address Karen's damage deficiency, but her low HP/defense is her single biggest weakness in the front row. She dies way too quickly against any tough enemy.
jack1974 wrote:Suppose you saw my post in the other thread. Though being a Thief, in reality she should stay in the backrow like the others
Yep, saw it afterward. Hahahahah, yeah, those uppity thieves are always wanting things that aren't theirs. They should learn to stay in the back of the bus with those geeky pencil-neck mages. The front of the bus is for fighter jocks only.
Last edited by P_Tigras on Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I think there IS such a thing as a "front line thief," but that, again, she needs to have some sort of chance to have a high passive dodge compared to fighters in order to compensate for her relative fragility.
I generally went with Amukiki (tank), Loren (damage dealer!) and Sauzer or Ramas, depending on the fight. Both Sauzer and Ramas deal pretty good damage, but Sauzer being barehanded meant that for specific fights where enchanted equipment might deal more damage, I'd go with Ramas.
Back row: love love LOVE Draco (both a couple buffs and his damage potential) and Chambara. I know that leaves me healer-less, but I generally played with Thief!Elenor, and built her up for buffs/healing so that balanced out.
I've played in both Normal and Hard mode with that general set-up.
(Admittedly, I'd still use Mesphit sometimes... his sheer damage potential against high HP foes, like when I'm farming Cyclopses for gold, would help... or Rei was dead useful against mages, and Dora was also a good alternate....)
Basically, I keep my teams mostly flexible, but those tend to be my default.
Draco: Awesome nuker, great buff with nearly not delay
Amukiki: Unlike other tanks he reduces damage done to other front line fighters considerably. With him tanking I had no trouble using a front row theif in hard mode. Amukiki does not die, ever.
Saren (either): Warrior probably has a slight edge since it works in the front better.
Loren: Heavy damage dealer that has a high level of survivability and a great full team buff. Quite Versitile.
Apolimesho: Myrth is supposedly a better healer but with Amukiki in my front line and the defend function protecting the back, He ended up being a better healer since I could regen and then spend the rest of the battle with haste casting or nukes. Paralyze shuts down back row casters very easily.
Myrth?: I could put Mesphit or Rei here possibly. All the mages are powerful and myth beats out Chembara die to her increased versatility.
Other character notes:
-Karen: I never played her pre patch, she seemed to hold her own well enough now. Not amazing but not trash. Still has the standard thief issue of ever one of their basic tree skills being the same thing.
-Chembara: She would be a great candidate to go down the basic mage tree and grab ranks of haste since her custom class just has the same spell for every slot. Mages are too strong in general to say she is weak, but she does nothing that any other mage can't do much better.
-Sauzer: Probably a great character if your rushing through the game since he is rather independent of equipment. I liked to grind, quest and shop a lot though so he ended up much weaker then anyone else.
+Rei: Amazingly powerful character. Takes heavy advantage of any condition that can be set up.
+Mesphit: He hits like a fucking bazooka. Against high health targets his specials are highest in the game, but even with basic attacks in demon form he outdamages any other physical attacker, even Loren. He has the option of front lining too. (I used Amukiki so i may be a bit to quick to throw front line theives into viability in hard mode, but I bet Mesp could handle it anyway - With Jul's necklace im sure he'd be a beastly front.)
Nitpick skiil: Poison Strike (the thief ability): Why would I spend 9 skill points on this when it does the same thing as any other thief tree ability? Maxing 2 abilities is nice for elemental versatility, but three? Has anyone actually ever used this that didn't start with it because of the Tactical option?
Really interesting how you played the game with Amukiki in front line + Apolimesho regen makes me happy because means that there are more possibilities beside the commonly used ones (Ramas or Sauzer in front line) and that at least made a decent job with all the classes/skills (apart Karen before the update).
Probably the most powerful two characters are Rei and Dora, especially if you're willing to use weapon swapping significantly. Most rogues also have the oddity that their special attack delays go down with increasing skill level, not up, and Rei can have a 130% any time attack with a 6 delay (which is equivalent to a regular melee swing) which combined with his generally high agility means an absurd DPS. Dora is similar with a 7 delay AE attack with a huge multiplier. Rei has the advantage of peaking with very few invested skill points (as Headshot has no other pre-reqs); Dora has the bigger upside but takes longer to get there, with at least 7 points necessary for her top skill. That does mean that she is a little bit more versatile later on, as she has better skills overall (mostly her stun skill off of stagger), while Rei can't really find anything to spend points on. Overall, Dora is probably the single most powerful character.
The other rogues aren't quite as effective, mostly due to somewhat lackluster skills. Karen has decent skill choices, but you need a pretty big skill investment to make it all work, and she suffers a lot from attribute point contention. Her skills are also more warrior like (which is to say they get slower with upgrade, which is bad) which ends up hurting quite a bit. Her weapon choices also seem inferior. I haven't used Meph as much, but his skills seem pretty dubious.
Loren is a very hard hitter (for warriors anyway) but overall weaker than the two super rogues as it's harder to match elements with her two weapons. Both DW skill and Knockdown are pretty overpowered though, especially compared to what other warriors get, and Knockdown 1 is about as effective as Knockdown 3, making her peak pretty quickly. None of the other warriors seem that good, suffering significantly from the warrior-delay-with-upgrade issue. I don't have much else to say here as the warriors in general are pretty suspect in effectiveness; their job is to sit in the front row with 800 hitpoints so Rei and Dora don't get staggered.
Mages are somewhat dubious. I understand they're better than before (I haven't played 'before') but their skills are almost all just too slow to be competitive, and the debuffs are too unreliable to be effective. Unlike rogues or warriors to a lesser extent, they cannot take advantage of weapon swapping to any real degree. Draco is the only real winner here, as his best abilities are all rank 1 and they're quite strong compared to the abilities available to the other mages. His 5th unique skill is also pretty decent, a very fast ability that speeds up other people (Rei or Dora). For the most part the big AE abilities are pretty useless, as their delays are too long and if the AE spell is effective at killing your enemies, chances are you don't really need help in killing them (what you need is the ability to quickly remove a target from play, which is what Draco does best of the mages). Myrth in particular is very weak as all of her spells have a low multiplier to compensate for the hit-everyone aspect, and upgrading her spells doesn't improve the DPS (you get small benefit from the up-front effect). She might be a decent healer, but I've never found healing to be a real issue; the more important thing is keeping rogue energy up, which is generally accomplished by Saren/Elenor or by potting. Chambra has a slight niche in that she's the only dark magic user, but she doesn't really become effective until tier 3 spells (and they're still slow), making her much less flexible than Draco, who peaks with just 4-5 skill points. Apo is probably the second best caster, having decent single target nukes (though inferior to Draco and with less flexibility).
My best party was Draco/Rei/Dora, with Warrior Saren/Elenor to tank/recharge the rogues/occasional heal and Loren, with the last front spot going to whichever other warrior I felt like bringing at the time (though usually Amukiki for the cheap fear or the semi-reliable stun).
