Who is the best Love Interest?

[jack1974]

Yep remember that before PS1 I didn't have any homosex romance in the game so is still relatively new to me but I'll try to do that and I am even planning some future games that are EXCLUSIVELY gay/lesbian (meaning all the dateable characters are gay/lesbians). But first need to finish the current "batch" of games

[megaman12321]

I'm sorry if I offend in some or any way because I never really thought about the topic of Loren's sexuality, but I want to try adding my own thoughts.

I guess it's really up to interpretation, but Loren doesn't really seem like she knew much about, or like, men in general, if her somewhat cold attitude in the beginning and that small scene before the final battles indicated anything. Apparently it's rare for the Amazons to care about a male, you know, slaves and all, and Loren probably wouldn't care for men in general if Saren wasn't send to be with her. Still, Loren and Saren spend alot of time together, romantic or not, and she begins to trust him, thinking he's more then just a simple male. Breza seems to be surprised that Loren is treating Saren like a equal, but considering what they went through together, that's easy to understand.

Except maybe the nymph scene, I wasn't entirely sure Loren was lesbian. Her interest in women might have been because she was raised in the Amazon culture and just thought that was right. Then again, that alone might also bring up that myth of "turning for the right man" It might have been that once the hostility went away, she was curious about Saren, became friends through experiences, then actually fell in love with him as he showed interest. If anything, we don't know Loren was in any committed relationship before so this could have been the first time she actually fell in love as she had a more meaningful relationship with either Saren or Elenor.

If you have the fall in love theory like I did, you can argue Karen is the same case. She ran away since she fell in love with a man. The guy was I think her personal servant/slave and spend a lot of time with her and they grew closer and fell in love. It can be interpreted as the "the one man" myth or that they just spent so much time together that they eventually fell in love, laws preventing it or not.

For the issue about making Saren completely gay, since he was shown to be attracted to Myrth, I think that's a issue of wording. When describing a character, it can be a bit hard to discribe a person to look beautiful/handsome/whatever without the person making the description to feel a bit attracted. If worded differently, it might work, but I think the scene in question was to just emphasis how pretty Myrth was.


Again, I think it's really up to interpretation if you believed Loren was a actual lesbian before she meet Saren. The nymph scene made Loren's romance with Saren go into that myth's territory, but I was more under the impression that she was interested in women because that was how she was raised. I wasn't really aware of it since I didn't notice the unintended effects and I'm not exactly LGBT aware (you'd think having gay/les friends would do that). Hopefully Loren 2 can address these issues without too much trouble.

[Sylrissa]

Also, I want everybody to know that Jack is actually really receptive to issues like this. When he realizes there is a problem, he actively tries to fix it. You can probably expect better gay romances from now on.

I know he is And that is to his credit. That is one of the reasons I'm really looking forward to future releases.

Yep it is why he is my favorite indie dev.

[liiito]

I agree, it's nice seeing devs responding thoughtfully and respectfully to criticism like this, or even having an atmosphere where this kind of criticism can be discussed especially considering typical gamer culture.

[Madance]

Exactly. I didn't mean to cause a huge debate over everything. I only stated a fact that bothered me far too much for my liking. I know that the future lesbians romances won't commit the same mistakes made in Loren. I'm glad that Aleema agree with me in the issues that I had stated. I'm looking forward to see and experience the Breza romance in the sequel, since much more care will be given, considering the particular issues involved especially in the Loren female "romance". Some care will need to be taken on that romance path, to make it better for female players.

On another note, Chambara romance was simply so well done. I actually became one of her cultists, erh, I mean one of her admirers since the character was very interesting. So, congratulations in making a lovable, full of darkness but also cute character.^____________________________________^

[ValHallen]

I agree with Madance that the lesbian characters all have the "but of course they'll sleep with guys, too" baggage with them. It's pure sexual fantasy for straight men, but actual lesbian women pay the cost. It most definitely is harmful to continue the stereotype that lesbians just need the right man to convert them. I was bothered when I learned I had to write certain things involving Karen and Loren's sexuality. I tried to write them in the most tasteful way possible, but it probably doesn't matter how well you write it, it's still offensive as a concept. I felt the same way about Michelle from Planet Stronghold. She has a similar story to Karen's and an unfortunate pattern is showing. For what it's worth, I think you're right. I think it's about time there's a lesbian character that is exclusive to women.

Also, I want everybody to know that Jack is actually really receptive to issues like this. When he realizes there is a problem, he actively tries to fix it. You can probably expect better gay romances from now on.

I can understand why you would feel that way with Karen, but why do you feel this way with Loren? Wasn't she always planed to be the bi romance? If you could what would you do different ? Write her to be lesbian only or something different?

Like the ending of the game, where Saren and Loren could have their almost "fairy tale ending" while Elenor and Loren had a bitter and sad ending, which only reinforced in me the feeling that the romance was a waste of time. There is nothing in her that is worth the try, she give lesbians a bad name with this "I would change for the right man" and "regardless of how much we love each other, since you aren't a man, we deserve this sad bitter end".

tell me did you felt the same way with Chambara? Since Elenor have a much better ending than Saren in her romance, or you only feel this way in a lesbian relationship?

[yayswords]

Chambara, though I haven't tried all (nor will I). I don't believe the word love was mentioned once. That's better than constantly using it, and constantly using it to express lust and infatuation.

[Madance]

I agree with Madance that the lesbian characters all have the "but of course they'll sleep with guys, too" baggage with them. It's pure sexual fantasy for straight men, but actual lesbian women pay the cost. It most definitely is harmful to continue the stereotype that lesbians just need the right man to convert them. I was bothered when I learned I had to write certain things involving Karen and Loren's sexuality. I tried to write them in the most tasteful way possible, but it probably doesn't matter how well you write it, it's still offensive as a concept. I felt the same way about Michelle from Planet Stronghold. She has a similar story to Karen's and an unfortunate pattern is showing. For what it's worth, I think you're right. I think it's about time there's a lesbian character that is exclusive to women.

Also, I want everybody to know that Jack is actually really receptive to issues like this. When he realizes there is a problem, he actively tries to fix it. You can probably expect better gay romances from now on.

I can understand why you would feel that way with Karen, but why do you feel this way with Loren? Wasn't she always planed to be the bi romance? If you could what would you do different ? Write her to be lesbian only or something different?

Like the ending of the game, where Saren and Loren could have their almost "fairy tale ending" while Elenor and Loren had a bitter and sad ending, which only reinforced in me the feeling that the romance was a waste of time. There is nothing in her that is worth the try, she give lesbians a bad name with this "I would change for the right man" and "regardless of how much we love each other, since you aren't a man, we deserve this sad bitter end".

tell me did you felt the same way with Chambara? Since Elenor have a much better ending than Saren in her romance, or you only feel this way in a lesbian relationship?

Well, the problem is that Loren was presented DURING THE GAME to be a "lesbian", being interested only in females, and them Saren "converted" her, since apparently "the only thing lesbians needed was the right man to change them back into normal people". And the sad ending of Loren/Elenor romance only serve to make it far more obvious. And everything... Oh well, I will just repeat myself yet again, please, forgive me for not going into detail anymore, but to be more clear: I had no problem with Chambara or Karen romance(or any of the other bi characters). Karen romance was good(even though I believe she could have been a option to Saren, but that's another thing that I won't get in detail) and Chambara was the most sincere of the three romances.
Loren/Elenor romance was somehow offensive, and reinforced a terrible myth about lesbians, that a lesbian can be "turned straight" for the right guy, which simply isn't true. Another thing, I don't mind a bad ending if it was done evenly. Aside from Loren/Elenor path, I didn't see any other romance in the game with a bad ending like that. "But Chambara had a bad ending for Saren's path, so you're being unfair". No, since Mesphit path with Elenor is not exactly good as well, not to mention, Chambara was from the expansion. To resume, the bad ending of Loren's "romance" with Elenor only worsened the offensive facts of the romance itself. It already send a bad message without it, but with the ending made the romance almost unplayable, and I haven't found a really redeeming quality to it.

Please everyone, I might be just repeating myself. Try to understand that my problem is NOT the bi options or even the characters by themselves. My problem is with equality, because the romances aren't really equal, we don't see this kind of thing with the BxB, GxB or BxG options. This is will serve as feedback to help in creating more equality between the future romances from now own. I trust that in the sequel, even Loren/Elenor romance path will be better(at least, this is what I hope, I actually like Loren's character a lot), if take some special care is taken while elaborating it.

[jack1974]

I understand your frustration, and now I know how we're going to write the future romances, but about this:

Well, the problem is that Loren was presented DURING THE GAME to be a "lesbian", being interested only in females, and them Saren "converted" her, since apparently "the only thing lesbians needed was the right man to change them back into normal people". And the sad ending of Loren/Elenor romance only serve to make it far more obvious.

I really don't think the game sends that message. If does, it wasn't my or Aleema intention for sure! Nobody turned anyone, and there isn't a "RIGHT" or "WRONG" way to love someone based on gender or sexual preferences. Loren with Saren was one of a kind, is not like now Loren would fall in love with any men (again my English probably doesn't let me express exactly what I want to say but I hope you understand).
Thinking about it, was probably a bad idea to have Loren available to male romances for start, but being the main character I didn't dare to make her lesbian only...

[ValHallen]

In my game the nymph scène never happened, só you cant say that she was presented as lesbian