Future RPGs

Games with combat, inventory, crafting and more beside a story and dating/life sim gameplay
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jack1974
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Re: Future RPGs

Post by jack1974 » Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:56 am

Yes I'm thinking to get rid of the battle log window as suggested by Anima and have bigger portraits so I can display HP/SP in the amount current/total, and maybe other important stats directly on screen without the need to click to see them :)

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jack1974
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Re: Future RPGs

Post by jack1974 » Tue Jan 20, 2015 12:54 pm

Okay time for an update on this :)

After an initial good amount of sales, SOTW slowed down very considerably. Steam launch was a total flop, compared to my expectation and time/money spent on it. I think it's an old-style RPG which probably in nowadays market has little space. I made various considerations about this which will post on next Friday's blog post so I'll keep it short here. But in any case the answer to the initial question:
In practice depending how SOTW will perform, I'll decide if in future I'll do more games like it, or go back to more VN/RPG (where the VN part is much bigger) like Loren.
for sure more games like VN/RPG, like Loren!!! no doubts about this. It really wasn't worth my time to spend 10 months working like a madman to make a better RPG part :lol:

Also, I keep getting many complaints like this (in this case is for Planet Stronghold, but it could be probably applied to SOTW as well):
Tiresome combat
Jeez, level 2 and I'm fighting 560 HP worth of bad guys and taking about 10-20 damage per round out of them, while they're taking 20-30 out of me, or 40-50 if they're lucky. Battles take ages of micromanagement swapping round items, and if the RNG gets you, you're dead. Maybe this improves at the higher levels, and in my youth I may have stuck it out, but life's to short now.
(I think he's exaggerating, but you get the point)
To be honest, it's the same for me now. When I play RPGs, if doing a combat takes too long, I don't like it. Also don't like if there are too many combats.

So I'm sorry for the various people who liked SOTW because of combat, but...it is very unlikely that I'll make a game like this again :oops:

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fabulaparva
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Re: Future RPGs

Post by fabulaparva » Tue Jan 20, 2015 2:09 pm

And Vincent Van Gogh only sold one painting during his lifetime. :P

Sorry to hear SotW hasn't done as well as you would've liked. Maybe it'll bloom later with the DLC. :) No need to be sorry; it your time and your money, so it's obviously your decision what type of games you'll make (and SotW is still a wonderful game and it got made. :) )

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jack1974
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Re: Future RPGs

Post by jack1974 » Tue Jan 20, 2015 2:35 pm

Thanks :) Well I really liked working on it, but in the end I need to survive :lol: and in today's very competitive games world is not easy!
Still, I have in mind some ideas on how to have fun/challenging battles in future RPGs without going nuts. I think the best idea is to have them optional, like Loren, so those who wants to grind can, while those who play mostly for the story aren't forced to play too many battles. Also, I'm going to simplify the rules, but still keep them fun. More info on next Friday blog post!

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Re: Future RPGs

Post by Troyen » Wed Jan 21, 2015 4:16 am

jack1974 wrote:Also, I keep getting many complaints like this (in this case is for Planet Stronghold, but it could be probably applied to SOTW as well):
Tiresome combat
Jeez, level 2 and I'm fighting 560 HP worth of bad guys and taking about 10-20 damage per round out of them, while they're taking 20-30 out of me, or 40-50 if they're lucky. Battles take ages of micromanagement swapping round items, and if the RNG gets you, you're dead. Maybe this improves at the higher levels, and in my youth I may have stuck it out, but life's to short now.
(I think he's exaggerating, but you get the point)
To be honest, it's the same for me now. When I play RPGs, if doing a combat takes too long, I don't like it. Also don't like if there are too many combats.

So I'm sorry for the various people who liked SOTW because of combat, but...it is very unlikely that I'll make a game like this again :oops:
No offense, but I think this is because long battles in WW games don't really have much diversity. Especially in PS (which I'm also replaying right now), it's just spam the same skills over and over again (maybe change up the Psionic action if I want to try a different buff/debuff) and wait 30 turns for the RNG to slowly grind away the enemy. Sort of like Riley vs the Golem or various other guard fights in SotW. The winning strategy is already determined by the first or second round and the rest is waiting for enough random hits to win.

The games that do long combat well have mechanics that make you adapt your strategy or change up what skills you're doing. The former is somewhat easier to do (why you see a lot of games with multi-phase boss fights), the latter requires a lot more tactical control and ability to react/anticipate boss mechanics - and I don't quite think Loren/SotW have that level of control (you get close with some of the debuff combos).

Also, I think generally long fights are better received when they're for bosses, not for non-boss fights. "Wow, I spent 30 minutes on those healing Dingerran guards" vs "Wow, I spent 30 minutes on the last boss! It was tough, but I've beaten the game!"

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jack1974
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Re: Future RPGs

Post by jack1974 » Wed Jan 21, 2015 8:20 am

Yes exactly that's the main issue. There's no point in dragging a fight for too long if is not a boss fight. Even in higher difficulty levels, the challenge should be more like a puzzle or in any case shouldn't make the battles longer because enemies can heal too. I should remove the whole heal/resurrect mechanics :lol: (I'm joking, but just reducing that part a lot would force me to make battles shorter and think alternative ways).

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Re: Future RPGs

Post by Troyen » Wed Jan 21, 2015 8:45 am

Actually, it might be interesting to try a game without in-combat healing/resurrection!

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Re: Future RPGs

Post by kadakithis » Fri Jan 23, 2015 4:17 am

I hope it wasn't too financially unsuccessful. I like it when people experiment and you get different sorts of games from anything else out there. I like the idea that the twins have a joint narrative. And I actually have had little trouble with the combat on Normal (but Agility and Arcane/Strength are my go to which made the hard fights easier) even if I rarely play games for the combat, I usually enjoy it. I really loved the days to events, as well as the seasons being different chapters in a story. I guess I hope you dont stop trying new things.

For me combat in games is my way of earning my story, its satisfying when otherwise a bunch of reading would have bored me, and adds a bit of achievement to it. Its hard because often there is a different market of people who want a game where they can fight, and a game where the fighting is a vehicle for the story. Whats great about Loren, for me, and also SotW is that the fighting and gameplay is relaxed and fun. I always will lament the fact I cannot play Assassins Creed because I don't like the gameplay. So I really like the middle ground you have with your RPGs.

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jack1974
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Re: Future RPGs

Post by jack1974 » Fri Jan 23, 2015 7:35 am

No it wasn't unsuccessful, but more likely not worth all the time. I actually just published my latest blog post in which I explain in detail:
blog/2015/01/a-sotw-postmortem/

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jack1974
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Re: Future RPGs

Post by jack1974 » Sun Mar 08, 2015 12:04 pm

Reviving this old thread after having almost finished coding SOTW DLC... :)

I really will never make a game like SOTW anymore. And it really doesn't matter how successful it was:I already noticed it last year, but this year got worse. I am totally burned out. I think is something many people, but even developers themselves, underestimate. One doesn't simply code a game like SOTW and then resumes working again normally on other stuff. It has permanent consequences for a while, the so called "burning out". At least it's what happened to me. My brain refuses to work, I feel heavy, stressed, and I get in bad mood. And then, I also don't accomplish anything else during that day :o

Even if SOTW sold 10 times Loren, I simply couldn't code another one, not now, not this year, MAYBE next year but even then I wouldn't really be motivated. Since I'm making games as indie, so primarily doing stuff I want to make/I enjoy myself first, I realized I don't enjoy anymore doing complex games like this. In the past when I was younger (ahem... 40 years is not old, but maybe for this field is?) I coded similar complex games (sports sims) in C++. But that was then, and now is now... and I can't do it.

So even future RPGs or strategy/sim games will be SIMPLE, both to learn and to code. And simple doesn't mean: short, poor, boring, badly designed, etc. I always make the example of Hearthstone: very simple to learn, simple rules, but one of the best CCG (or games in general) ever made (and is not just my opinion).

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